Originally Posted By MPierce >> I guess I'm biased because I've been seeing the exact same show since 1989. Exact. Same. Show. Twenty years and they haven't updated it. The plant in the audience stopped being cute around ten years ago. << I'll have to admit we waited 10 years between shows to view Indy again. It was enjoyable, but the same show I remember. Funny how I would never tire of any of the attractions at WDW, but I do when it comes to shows or parades. That is with the exception of ToN.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 I have long believed that Disney expanded in ways that may not have been in its best interest. A year before the Studios opened I was talking to one of the main Imagineers about the project and he said the park was designed as a half day experience. Several months before opening everyone at Imagineering FL was surprised when the ticket prices were announced as the same price as MK and EPCOT. There was a lot of head scratching about that decision. The answer from above was they didnt want to cheapen the Disney experience by adding a park that charged less money than the other two. Of course there were also promises about expansion of the park pretty early on. One of the discussions included a bridge over the North South Road (main entrance to the MK) that would include a major expansion of soundstages, backlot and a several lands. The Studios is land locked so the expansion talked about would need to have been over there. Of course that didnt happen and as we know the studio part of the Studios has long perished. I opened both the Studios and DAK. And when DAK opened there was a lot of discussion about this was only the beginning for DAK. Asia expansion was already being worked on (Kali Rapids) and Beastly Kingdom was always on the horizon we were told. I would just shake my head and tell people...dont hold your breath. What I really havent understood are the additions of a race track, sports complex, night club complex, Disney Quest. I never understood how they even remotely tie into the Disney experience. I do believe that by expanding the way that Disney has expanded has slowed down new attractions in the parks. I believe I will probably never see a new country in World Showcase, a new land at AK, some clarity of theme for Hollywood Studios or anything that remotely resembles the great attractions of the past in the MK. I believe that because those decisions are in the hands of people who spend more time with Excel spread sheets than in the parks.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<I have long believed that Disney expanded in ways that may not have been in its best interest.>> I've never really understood why they even built the Studios park where it is. Other than taking advantage of its proximity to EPCOT, they really created a mess for themselves with the placement of that park and surrounding hotels. Compared to the simple beauty of the Seven Seas Lagoon area, the EPCOT, Studios, and Downtown Disney areas look like urban sprawl. I honestly think the worst decision ever made at WDW was abandoning the monorail system. Now they have such a mess of hotels and parks placed willy-nilly all around property that they'll never be able to efficiently connect them all with one system - and it's really a shame. They started with something that should have been a model for all future American cities and instead created a transportation mess - just like the rest of the country.
Originally Posted By danyoung >Either way, nothing says "poor planning" like a theme park with two stunt shows.< I never even thought that the two shows at all overlapped each other. One is about physical stunts, while the other is motor sports. I don't have any problem with both shows being there, although I think Indy still has much more entertainment value than LMA.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 <<What I really havent understood are the additions of a race track, sports complex, night club complex, Disney Quest. I never understood how they even remotely tie into the Disney experience>> I assume the plan was that every member of the family/group would have something to do, even though they wouldn't be all doing it together.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I assume the plan was that every member of the family/group would have something to do, even though they wouldn't be all doing it together. << I agree Bobbelee. I just think several of the directions they went in were not completely thought out or executed very well. Maybe in time those things would have all worked out. I just think they have gone way to fast in to many directions in a short time frame.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I'm happy that EPCOT will be getting small things. Hopefully Energy is somewhere on there. I know it's been looked at...And even painted. As for SSE, fiscal year. Shame my trip isn't around then! << You're not fooling me one bit EE. You want every stinkin' dime TWDC has to go into EPCOT!
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<You're not fooling me one bit EE. You want every stinkin' dime TWDC has to go into EPCOT! >> Sign me up for that sentiment too - bring back EPCOT Center!! Best. Park. Ever.
Originally Posted By brotherdave I have to agree with that! EPCOT Center was awesome during the late 80s/early 90s. Journey Into Imagination, World of Motion, and Horizons were wondrous attractions!!!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I opened both the Studios and DAK. And when DAK opened there was a lot of discussion about this was only the beginning for DAK. Asia expansion was already being worked on (Kali Rapids) and Beastly Kingdom was always on the horizon we were told. I would just shake my head and tell people...dont hold your breath. >> At least DAK had/has a master plan. Disney-MGM was so rushed thru that it never really had a formal plan. That's why expansion has been all over the place. How many times has cast parking been moved? Four? Five? They rushed it so they could beat UNI to the punch and then when they couldn't make Orlando into Hollywood East they started taking away locations that were for production and began using them as 'guest areas' ... I always enjoyed MGM more when it was small and compact and at least 'worked' as a cohesive whole. Now, what is it? A mess. <<What I really havent understood are the additions of a race track, sports complex, night club complex, Disney Quest. I never understood how they even remotely tie into the Disney experience. I do believe that by expanding the way that Disney has expanded has slowed down new attractions in the parks. I believe I will probably never see a new country in World Showcase, a new land at AK, some clarity of theme for Hollywood Studios or anything that remotely resembles the great attractions of the past in the MK. I believe that because those decisions are in the hands of people who spend more time with Excel spread sheets than in the parks.>> I hope you're wrong, but my guess based on what I've seen since the mid-90s, plus what insiders who still remain at the company in creative positions have said, plus what insiders like our own intrepid Leemac have added makes me think you're right. And the move into things like DQ and WWoS and the ridiculous racetrack in the parking lot came out of a mid-90s (actually started a bit earlier) desire by Disney and Eisner for the company to be all things for all people. It can't be and it has taken down a path where Disney is a quality product, but not nearly the premium product it once was.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I've never really understood why they even built the Studios park where it is. Other than taking advantage of its proximity to EPCOT, they really created a mess for themselves with the placement of that park and surrounding hotels. Compared to the simple beauty of the Seven Seas Lagoon area, the EPCOT, Studios, and Downtown Disney areas look like urban sprawl. >> Mousecasprawl, I call it. The result of trying to build on every single square inch of land ... or you sell it ... or worse, you build a high end housing community on a huge chunk. I was just saying at lunch today how poorly WDW has been developed and spread. You can see the All Stars from US 192. From the high end African-themed DAK Lodge and Villas you can see plain Central FLA timeshares, streetlights and signs for 7-11 and Bob Evans, among other distractions. Then ... you have conflict with Swan and Dolphin and ToT sticking up behind the World Showcase ... or giant blue theater buildings behind the Canadian Rockies. It's almost as if very little thought went into any of it. Not likely what Walt had in mind ... but I doubt timeshares or a racetrack in the MK parking lot or a giant shopping mall were in his plans either. <<I honestly think the worst decision ever made at WDW was abandoning the monorail system. Now they have such a mess of hotels and parks placed willy-nilly all around property that they'll never be able to efficiently connect them all with one system - and it's really a shame. They started with something that should have been a model for all future American cities and instead created a transportation mess - just like the rest of the country.>> All it will take is one Disney bus accident that kills children and suddenly they'll look at monorail expansion again. I know that sounds terribly cold and calculating, but I do believe it. I doubt anything short of that or sustained $5 a gallon gas (which will destroy our country so it won't matter anyway) will push Disney to expand the system. From 1971 to the mid-90s there were always plans for monorail expansion ... from a long beamway to what was then Disney Village in the 70s to the final serious concept where they marked/planned a course from EPCOT to Disney-MGM Studios and with an EPCOT resort station roughly near the YC Convention Ctr. I have a property map here somewhere from approximately 1990-91 that shows the new route. But then DLP happened ... and Frank Welld died ... and Michael has his health scare ... and then decided sports franchises and cruise ships and fast food outlets and timeshares and ... well, a whole lot of things were more pressing. I seriously doubt Bob Iger has ever thought about the monorails in any serious context until two of them collided in July. Not on the radar.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << But then DLP happened ... and Frank Welld died ... and Michael has his health scare ... and then decided sports franchises and cruise ships and fast food outlets and timeshares and ... well, a whole lot of things were more pressing. >> More important than any of those items is the fact that animated films stopped becoming billion dollar profit gold mines that generated cash flow out of thin air. The VHS and DVD business became more competitive (there was a day when Disney owned nearly every top-10 VHS title sold in the U.S.). Theme parks require enormous amounts of money. They don't generate that kind of money on their own. Disney has always been fortunate to have a film and merchandise business to prop up the theme parks. Those other business lines just aren't quite substantial enough anymore to feed the cash flow needs of Disney's parks around the world.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>You're not fooling me one bit EE. You want every stinkin' dime TWDC has to go into EPCOT! << That easy to tell? It's pretty true...Heh. Although They could send a few billion over to MK.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<More important than any of those items is the fact that animated films stopped becoming billion dollar profit gold mines that generated cash flow out of thin air. The VHS and DVD business became more competitive (there was a day when Disney owned nearly every top-10 VHS title sold in the U.S.).>> Well, when Disney started cutting back its animation department was at its Second Golden Age pinnacle ... this was the era of Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, Lion King, Toy Story etc ... even Pocohontas and Huncback (two of my favorite films) did very well. Disney didn't start having issues until later in the decade ... <<Theme parks require enormous amounts of money. They don't generate that kind of money on their own. Disney has always been fortunate to have a film and merchandise business to prop up the theme parks. Those other business lines just aren't quite substantial enough anymore to feed the cash flow needs of Disney's parks around the world.>> Yeah. Here we go again with another post on why theme parks are a terrible business. It's trotted out in bad times when it can't be as much of an ATM and even in good times when the $$$ seems to prop up other aspects of the company. But sure, at $79 a day Disney barely has any cash left to turn the lights on or flush the toilets ... it's only because Iger, Staggs and Rasulo are such saints that CMs are even paid!
Originally Posted By grlweatswchpstx <<But sure, at $79 a day Disney barely has any cash left to turn the lights on or flush the toilets ... it's only because Iger, Staggs and Rasulo are such saints that CMs are even paid!>> Ever considered the water bills? Realistically? The electricity bills? Paying every employee while mainting shows, attractions, restaurants, walkways, horticulture? And the amount of expendable materials that have to be bought every day to keep it running? The cost of batteries? Repairs and replacement of equipment? Shipping costs? Theme parks cost a lot of money so its no wonder that other areas are expected to contribute to this line.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << But sure, at $79 a day Disney barely has any cash left to turn the lights on or flush the toilets ... >> That's not what I said at all. Of course, you are probably already aware that admission receipts only covers 1/3 of the parks & resorts operating expenses. But I'm talking about the expense of just keeping these venues fresh with new attractions, refurbishments, new technology, etc. That requires free cash flow. Disney is the only theme park company out there that finances these things with their own cash flow. All the others end up borrowing money in some way, shape, or form to maintain their capital investments. That's why Six Flags is in bankruptcy, Cedar Fair is in bad shape, and Universal still only turns a meager profit every year.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << It's trotted out in bad times when it can't be as much of an ATM and even in good times when the $$$ seems to prop up other aspects of the company. >> Even in the good times, capital investments in the theme parks usually eat up all their profit. I'm not aware of many circumstances where theme parks propped up other aspects of the company. There have certainly been circumstances where films and merchandise have underperformed and theme parks did well -- but the parks still used up all their cash on expansions and other investments. I don't think I've ever seen it where the other businesses used substantial theme park cash for their capital investments.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Even in the good times, capital investments in the theme parks usually eat up all their profit.>> SG - that is absolutely not the case. Capex is entirely balance sheet-driven either by cash or debt. There is no income statement impact and therefore no impact on profits (except potentially the additional interest expense on the debt to build-out). Ultimately the only consideration by TWDC is what will give their shareholders the best return on their investment - WDP&R, Studio Entertainment, Media Networks, Consumer Products or Interactive Media.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << There is no income statement impact and therefore no impact on profits >> Lee -- I understand that entirely. However, without profits re-invested in capex, the parks don't survive long. That's why I always look at the cash flow statement on the quarterly and annual reports instead of the top and bottom line. Sure, there's a good amount of operating profit in these businesses, but also a lot of required capex. In any given year, the amount of capex on parks & resorts may be equal to or greater than the operating profit. Sure, they may finance some of the larger projects by adding debt, but generally they use the cash from the top line of the parks business (and other business lines) to re-invest. It's rare that they go a year without at least a half a billion dollars in capex. Usually, capex for the parks is in excess of a billion dollars a year. There's a lot of cash required for that. You can't just borrow it all -- a lot of those operating profits are reinvested here and the cash flow statements reflect that.
Originally Posted By MPierce Times sure are tough. Maybe TWDC should close up all their theme parks, and get into something that could make them a buck.
