Originally Posted By TomSawyer Why are you a Catholic if you don't agree with your faith's teachings and guidelines, wahooskipper?
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>Why are you a Catholic if you don't agree with your faith's teachings and guidelines, wahooskipper?<< There's a saying among some Catholics. The line for the cafeteria forms to the right and the left.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper China is your cited evidence? Good track record of human rights there. I'm not sure that is the best example. I'm sure if I had a relative on trial for muder I might think differently about the death penalty...but that likely isn't going to happen. But I'll say it again...if someone were to kill my wife or child...I would not want that person ever to again experience joy, laughter, satisfaction, achievement, pride or anything else that my loved one could no longer experience.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>I would not want that person ever to again experience joy, laughter, satisfaction, achievement, pride or anything else that my loved one could no longer experience<< Never again? Dude, we're Christians. We know that we'll experience all of those things again. That's what we're all about.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I am Republican but I don't agree with everything they say/do. Catholicism is my chosen vehicle to God (I converted). But, I do not agree with every single teaching (as is the case with most Catholics). When my wife and I found out that we conceived through fertility treatments the first time around went to confession with my priest. He heard my confession, wished me good luck, and baptized my son 9 months later.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I can forgive someone for stealing my cow or coveting my wife. I don't think I have it in me to forgive someone for killing my child. Maybe I am woefully inadequate.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>Catholicism is my chosen vehicle to God (I converted). But, I do not agree with every single teaching (as is the case with most Catholics).<< Then you are, by definition, a cafeteria Catholic. Catholicism is an all-or-nothing religion, much like Republicanism. The difference is that the teachings of the Catholic Church are based in philosophy and tradition that can actually be traced back to Christ Himself.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "China is your cited evidence? Good track record of human rights there. I'm not sure that is the best example." It fits my point exactly. You said it would be a deterrent if there weren't so many appeals. There aren't any appeals in China. They kill right after the verdict. Check out how many. It's no deterrent.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Ok...you can have one appeal...and that is it. The guy in Tampa has his DNA going against him...not to mention his own confessions to his brother. (Oh, and by the way...he asked a fellow inmate who was getting out soon to beat up his brother for him.) I'm Catholic. I don't believe the church should have hidden child molesting priests either so if that makes me a cafeteria Catholic...so be it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Then you are, by definition, a cafeteria Catholic.<< Knock it off with that, please? It comes off as very superior and insulting, hardly the message the church would like to send out.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan And by the way, the whole "cafeteria Catholic" nonsense sounds like something that comes up among busybodies at a bingo game talking about people behind their backs. It is judging others. You've no idea what sort of connections they may have with God.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The Old Testament isn't all that hung up about killing people; in fact they seem to like doing it for a wide variety of reasons. Some of the rather bizarre grounds for execution include: <<A male who was not circumcised: Genesis 17:14 Eating leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened Bread: Exodus 12:15 Manufacturing anointing oil: Exodus 30:33 Engaging in ritual animal sacrifices other than at the temple: Leviticus 17:1-9 Consuming blood: Leviticus 17:10. This would include eating rare meat. Eating peace offerings while ritually unclean: Leviticus 7:20 Waiting too long before consuming sacrifices: Leviticus 19:5-8 Sexual activity with a woman who is menstruating: Leviticus 20:18 Going to the temple in an unclean state: Numbers 19:13 Persons teaching another religion: Deuteronomy 13:1-11 A prophet whose prophecy does not come true: Deuteronomy 18:22 Gluttony and excessive drinking: Deuteronomy 21:20>> Source: <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/exe_bibl1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance. org/exe_bibl1.htm</a> Christianity... the religion of peace. ;-)
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>I'm Catholic. I don't believe the church should have hidden child molesting priests either so if that makes me a cafeteria Catholic...so be it.<< Child molesting priests is not a doctrine of the Church. In fact, the doctrine is that sex is for married couples only and that the act must be open to the possibility of new life. There is the added guilt of scandal when underage persons (children and adolescents) are involved. From the Catechism: >>2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.<< It is also a sin to hide or cover up the sin of another. From the Catechism: >>1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them: - by participating directly and voluntarily in them; - by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them; - by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so; - by protecting evil-doers.<< That means that everyone involved in the actions of molesting and hiding it are all in a state of grave sin. That the death penalty should only be used under certain circumstances that don't exist in our society is a doctrine of the Church and can be found in the official teaching of the Church, the Catechism of the Catholic Church: >>2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."<<
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Yadda, yadda, yadda. If I hide a criminal in my home I am, in fact legitimizing the crime. That is what the Catholic church (at least in America) did. Oh, and, I forgot all about the "sex with a menstruating woman" one. That will be interesting to bring up at my next confession.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "Oh, and, I forgot all about the "sex with a menstruating woman" one. That will be interesting to bring up at my next confession." Ya know, ya coulda just left that one between you and your priest. TMI, TMI.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer But why choose to join a group that you have such sharp disagreements with? There are other apostolic traditions that don't have that much dogmatic luggage to carry.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper There are relatively few positions that I don't agree with the Catholic Church on. Prior to converting I was a Methodist (and for a time as a child was Unitarian Universalist). I didn't agree with all teachings of those faiths either. But, I believe in Jesus Christ and choose to celebrate him amongst others. The Catholic Church (of which my wife is a member) welcomed me and for that I am blessed. I will raise my child(ren) in the Catholic church while also teaching them to search for answers on their own and in the context of faith.
