Originally Posted By ecdc All throughout Watergate, Republicans insisted that Democrats were on a partisan witch hunt. At the end, a lot of people went to jail. Not Nixon. He was pardoned and disgraced. I don't see why it couldn't be similar here. Let Bush off, but like Dabob2 said, the prosecution of others in his administration would let everyone know just who he was.
Originally Posted By alexbook Can we make a distinction here between a Justice Department investigation and Congressional hearings? I'm all for Justice getting into this, but Congress needs to stay out.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Can we make a distinction here between a Justice Department investigation and Congressional hearings? I'm all for Justice getting into this, but Congress needs to stay out.<< Agreed.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Yes, start a big process going to get the outgoing administration. The, in 4 or 8 years, the next administration will do the same. It will become political theater that we can expect after every administration leaves office, as their political foes go after them. You want to ensure a GOP victory in 4 years? Star the new administration off this way, going after the outgoing bunch. It will be political theater. Lots of grandstanding ad after-the-fact outrage. Lots of posturing. But it won't be about any kind of justice -- it will be about politics. The same old divisive kind most people are saying they don't want. Do they mean it when they say it? I'm starting to think maybe "divisive" is when it's said about my guy, and "fair" is when it's said about yours.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>All throughout Watergate, Republicans insisted that Democrats were on a partisan witch hunt.<< One difference is, they didn't wait until 1978 to start prosecuting Watergate. They did so right away, not looking back AFTER Richard Nixon completed his second term.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Yes, start a big process going to get the outgoing administration. The, in 4 or 8 years, the next administration will do the same. It will become political theater that we can expect after every administration leaves office, as their political foes go after them. You want to ensure a GOP victory in 4 years? Star the new administration off this way, going after the outgoing bunch.<< So you're proposing that justice NOT be served, because if they do it'll lose them an election? The heck with that. I want to live in a nation where just laws are enforced. If that sets off partisan witch hunts, then that's a chance we need to take. Come on, 2oony. I can't believe you're putting political concerns above prosecuting Geneva Convention violations.
Originally Posted By DAR <<I'm starting to think maybe "divisive" is when it's said about my guy, and "fair" is when it's said about yours.>> Welcome to American politics circa 2008.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Yes, start a big process going to get the outgoing administration. The, in 4 or 8 years, the next administration will do the same. It will become political theater that we can expect after every administration leaves office, as their political foes go after them.> It's not about political theatre. It's about prosecuting the breaking of what are supposed to be some of the most sacred laws this country has. This should be a largely behind the scenes investigation - no posturing (which is why is should be kept out of Congress). And hey, if they don't find any laws were broken, then they don't. But if they do, those people should NOT get a pass. Nor should their prosecution be a big show. Simply prosecute them in court and hell, make it as boring as possible. If the Obama administration wants it not to happen to them, they shouldn't authorize torture or illegal wiretaps or "black sites" or fire US attorneys for purely political reasons or etc. I don't think they will. But if they do, they should face the music also. These are not small things we're talking about, and they transcend partisan politics. They go to the heart of what our country is about.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <We are capable of doing more than one thing at a time.< but doing them right would be a change - right now we have almost all items DAR mentioned in the crapper. I would like to see things addressed that actually affect everyone everyday. If there is a felony to prosecute,then do so, or handle the things we were promised in the campaign - my take on it
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <but doing them right would be a change - right now we have almost all items DAR mentioned in the crapper.> But what in the world do mid-level Justice Dept. people (who would be investigating this) have to do with righting the economy or fixing the schools??? Yes, those things need to be fixed. But not by the people who'd be investigating this.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 And you don't think this would be any distraction to those with jobs to do ? You mention the schools - if Dems ramp this up- fully expect the GOP to pursue even deeper in the Illinois pay to play scandal. How much have you seen Rahm Emmanuel lately ? Valerie Jarrett ? What if Harry Reid is proven to have tried to broker a deal also ? Your new secretary of education heavily tied into Chicago politics as well -- someone with a grudge will throw that out there. What is the end gain ? Again,I said,if there are felonies to be prosecuted- then let's do so. If there are things that were enacted that need to be reversed - let's do so. Agreed. The rest is political theatre andI've had all of that I can stand
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Let's get both of these deals behind us- impeach the Gov hereand if there is hard fast severe criminal evidence against anyone else - let's go,if not let's not make this drawn out here also. Same in Washington... I do not want to be paying for people to spend years on this so that someone can get a slap on the wrist
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Come on, 2oony. I can't believe you're putting political concerns above prosecuting Geneva Convention violations.<< I'm not. But I can see a political circus coming easily enough. And a day-late, dollar-short effort like this would be will be a three-ring one. If there are investigations and trials, it's extreme wishful thinking that it won't be filled with political posturing and blather. If it lead to justice, great, but I think all that would come of it would be a lot of nonsense and distraction -- right when we need it least. >>This should be a largely behind the scenes investigation<< It won't be. It will be Ken Starr 2.0. Remember, you heard it here first.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan And as for it not being partisan or political, who is calling for this probe and a 9/11-style commission? Democrats and Republicans? Nope. Just Democrats. So already, it is partisan. And it is in the news, so it isn't behind the scenes. Already, just in the way this was announced, there's an element of grandstanding.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Well sure - you wouldn't expect the republicans to be calling for investigations into the rampant corruption within their own ranks, would you? So it's no surprise that these calls are coming from democrats. As I pointed out before, a lot of these skeletons are going to come rattling out whether we're actively looking for them or not. It's unwise to set a policy before the fact that we're going to suppress these nasty little surprises whenever and where ever they may pop up. I'm also concerned about destruction of documents from the outgoing administration. They already tacitly admit to the wholesale deleting of emails. The reason for destroying any documents would be to avoid criminal prosecution. Such a fundamental crime must not be overlooked.
Originally Posted By Mr X "I'll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 12, 2008
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I would like a show of hands of all those who think FDR should have been impeached. After all, he did far more to violate the constitutional rights of U.S. citizens than Bush ever dreamed of. You guys are whining because Bush did not provide due process to aliens accused of terrorist activities and tapped overseas phone calls of people suspected of terrorism. FDR locked up innocent U.S. CITIZENS of Japanese descent. Oh... silly me. I forgot. FDR was a democrat. OF COURSE you wouldn't support impeaching him!
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Oh... silly me. I forgot. FDR was a democrat. OF COURSE you wouldn't support impeaching him!<< Democrat and Republican has nothing to do with it. But the measure of the crime, why it was done, etc., does. FDR is of course dead, so this is a moot point. But there are differences between the administrations, try as people might to make silly comparisons between Bush and FDR, or Bush and Lincoln. And if FDR were alive today and broke the law, then yes, it should be looked at.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Oh... silly me. I forgot. FDR was a democrat. OF COURSE you wouldn't support impeaching him!*** No, silly you for making a silly argument. That was then. What kind of anti-discrimination laws were in effect during the first half of the last century? Is this the only instance of a minority citizen back then being discriminated against, treated unfairly, or locked up without cause? Hardly. This is akin to calling for posthumous impeachments of Washington and Jefferson for owning slaves. Of course we know know that they (and FDR) were dead wrong, you have to consider the times they lived in as well. As EC said, Dem or Repub has nothing to do with it, and if FDR did such a thing today of course it should be looked at.
