Originally Posted By Darkbeer A couple of articles from today's Orlando Sentinel. First, a commentary <a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-miket2807jun28" target="_blank">http://www.orlandosentinel.com /news/local/orange/orl-miket2807jun28</a>,0,6746934.column?coll=orl_news_local_orange_util >>That was the risk Disney took when it delved into nighttime entertainment. And so I'm not entirely sympathetic to its current plight. The reality is that such venues attract teenagers looking for a cheap place to loiter. Downtown Orlando, Winter Park, International Drive and almost any shopping mall have all had their problems with kids. If they are white kids in their Calvin Kleins hanging around Winter Park Village, they are treated as a nuisance at most. If they are black and Hispanic kids in their baggy pants hanging around Downtown Disney, they are treated as a threat. You could argue it's racist.... Disney has to deal with the growing number of teenagers settling in at Downtown Disney. The problem with any crackdown of this magnitude is that mistakes are made. To keep the crackdown credible, Disney needs to admit when that's the case, as it appears to be with these FSU recruits, and apologize.<< And a news article... <a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-mdisney2807jun28" target="_blank">http://www.orlandosentinel.com /news/local/orange/orl-mdisney2807jun28</a>,0,494640.story?coll=orl_news_local_orange_util >>In trying to rid Downtown Disney of loitering teens -- and possible street-gang members -- Walt Disney World is wrestling with a dilemma faced for years by shopping malls, movie theaters and other semi-public places operated by private businesses. With the help of off-duty Orange County deputy sheriffs, Disney security officers have expelled dozens of youth and banned them from returning to the resort the past two weekends. But as details of the crackdown emerged this week, it appeared that all but one of those banished were black or Hispanic, and some of the teens and their parents have accused Disney of targeting minorities. Disney officials would not respond publicly to such allegations, and on Wednesday they remained steadfast in their assertion that a crackdown on loitering youth was necessary. When asked if the resort was rethinking its strategy in light of complaints about racial profiling, spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said Disney has been listening to its guests. Still, the crackdown was likely to continue at least for one more weekend, she said. "Our guests are telling us that they appreciate our efforts. And we have seen a decline in the loitering behavior," she said.Disney also heard Tuesday from some of the families of four black teenagers -- all Florida State University football prospects -- who were expelled from Downtown Disney last weekend. The four included the son of a Disney manager and the son of a Philadelphia civil-rights lawyer. Some of the family members accused Disney of targeting young black men. Disney said it was simply trying to remove loitering youth. "You can wait for things to happen and then arrest those people, but by that time it would be too late," said University of Central Florida hospitality dean Abraham Pizam, who has written books on theme-park security and safety. "Or you can start watching those individuals who may be suspicious and try to prevent them from doing harm, or even entering the facility. But then you get into trouble." For shopping centers -- particularly those with movie theaters, which tend to draw groups of teens -- finding a way to keep loitering and disturbances to a minimum can be tricky, said David Marks, owner of Marketplace Advisors, a real-estate consulting firm in Winter Park. "You like the kids as customers," Marks added, "but you don't want them just hanging out causing trouble and getting into mischief."<<
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Disney needs to admit when that's the case, as it appears to be with these FSU recruits, and apologize>> Why is it obviously a mistake? Because they are FSU recruits? What does that have to do with anything?
Originally Posted By GMouse ^^ I agree with your sarcasm. That was the point of my post as well. What the heck does football or their parents or what school they went to have to do with this incident. It's absurd to even mention it. It has no bearing on the actions they allegidly took or did not take.
Originally Posted By Disneymom443 Maybe they were tring to say "Look these kids play football... they are good kids". We all know that have been around football players they think they are invencible.
Originally Posted By danyoung >But as details of the crackdown emerged this week, it appeared that all but one of those banished were black or Hispanic, and some of the teens and their parents have accused Disney of targeting minorities.< Is it possible that in the Orlando area the gang population is entirely made up of Hispanics and blacks? Are there any white gangs in Orlando?
Originally Posted By unwinded Finding a way to keep kids from loitering can be tricky, but the difference here is that all of Walt Disney World is privately owned and governed by Reedy Creek. They can kick out whomever they want. I expect this sort of thing at a mall, I do not want to see it at Disney World.
Originally Posted By Darkbeer Another article from Today's Orlando Sentinel, this time the Sports Section... <a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-whitley2807jun28" target="_blank">http://www.orlandosentinel.com /news/local/orange/orl-whitley2807jun28</a>,0,6191684.column?page=1 >>The day began by reading the front-page story about Disney kicking four FSU football recruits out of the park for loitering last weekend. That seemed odd since the theme-park industry is based on people wandering around. "We were just hanging out," Avis Commack said. So were a lot of other people, very few of whom suddenly were surrounded by more than a dozen cops, escorted to a holding area, photographed, searched, fingerprinted and told never to set foot on Disney property again. What set the Gang of Four apart? "They just harassed a group of black kids they thought might make trouble," Commack said. Oh, geez, it's the race card. The last thing we need is Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton cranking up their tired routines outside the Magic Kingdom. But you really are living a fairy tale if you believe this wasn't a case of racial profiling. That's understandable -- to a point. Disney is cracking down on gangs, and most gangs are made up of minorities. It would be silly to sic surveillance teams on 6-year-olds wearing mouse ears. Of the 46 people issued trespass warnings the past two weekends, 45 were black or Hispanic. But what if the suspects turn out to be nothing more than a few teenagers having harmless fun? That's all Commack, Vincent Williams, Nickolas Moody and Nigel Carr were doing at Downtown Disney. They are high-schoolers who've committed early to FSU. They were joined by future teammate Moses McCray, who left before the trouble started. Only there never was any trouble. The players walked around for a couple of hours. They sat for a while at an outdoor restaurant. They talked to girls, which is what 17-year-old boys do on a Friday night. They didn't spend any money. That might violate Disney policy, but it's hardly against the law. They already had decided to call it a night when they were circled by sheriff's deputies. One of the players had been given a movie ticket earlier, and deputies asked them to go to the movie or leave. "What did we do wrong?" said Commack, one of the nation's top receiving prospects. "Is this really called for?" Disney said the players were cited for not cooperating with deputies. To which I ask, what would you have done? You've had an enjoyable evening, minding your own business. Commack said there was a drunken white kid making a fool of himself a few yards away. But a phalanx of cops surrounds you and demands to know what's going on. Wouldn't you have questioned them back? If that's uncooperation, the players are clearly guilty. But I'm slightly confused why security got involved in the first place. If Disney World ran off everybody who behaved like the players, it would turn into Sunken Gardens. Where exactly is the line between hanging out and loitering? "If I get into details about that, it will affect the effectiveness of our safety plan," spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said.<< Much more at the link
Originally Posted By trekkeruss I think most people feel the OS always tries to paint Disney as the bad guy, so another opinion from them doesn't mean much. To continue quoting them is pointless.
Originally Posted By danyoung This is a situation similar to the Tigger smacking incident, in that there's no way we're going to know the whole story unless we were there. These kids could have indeed been doing nothing, or they could have been wolf whistling and yelling "Yo BABY!!" while grabbing body parts. But of course the kids are going to act like they're pure as the driven snow, and the cops are going to paint them as hoods. I'm very grateful that Disney is being proactive in policing their grounds, but they do need to be careful and make sure that they get it right every time.
Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror >>>If they are white kids in their Calvin Kleins hanging around Winter Park Village, they are treated as a nuisance at most. If they are black and Hispanic kids in their baggy pants hanging around Downtown Disney, they are treated as a threat. You could argue it's racist....<<< There's a REASON those pants are baggy. A lot of kids wearing those baggy pants like to HIDE things in them. The only thing those white kids in their Calvin Kleins can hide, are condoms or weed. Bravo to Disney for having the courage to risk an idiotic visit from someone like the "Reverend" Sharpton.
Originally Posted By a1stav I think Darkbeer's post hit the nail on the head with this one. Not much more to say.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<Hispanic 14.4% and African-American 12.8% but I am not sure where you are headed with this ?>>> Not headed anywhere, just wondering. Thanks for the info vbdad!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^^^^^^^^^^ no problem -- was just wondering because this is one of those 'no-win' discussions - Disney would be darned it they did and darned if they didn't on trying to control any potential situation like this..
Originally Posted By mele I think the situation should be looked into. We know that some people do racial profiling, we know that some people are racist. We know that sometimes security guards go overboard. We know that sometimes teenagers act like jerks but we also know that not every single kid goes out and gets into trouble. There's not enough info for us to really know what was going on but it bothers me that kids would be busted for loitering in a place that most of us here on LP have loitered in (in FL or CA). I've sat for hours in Downtown Disney, not really buying much of anything, just people watching and hanging out. I'm a 35 year old, white woman...if a few of my friends and I were hanging out there, just sitting on benches, laughing and talking, do you think we'd get kicked out? Highly doubtful. I'm still young enough to remember how some cops/security guards treated me and my friends when we were teenagers. A lot of them assumed we were up to no good and treated us accordingly. The article says the kids didn't really do anything wrong, they weren't harassing anyone. No other guests complained about how they were behaving. They were just hanging out. As far as we know, they aren't gang members. No one has said anything other than they were "there". Well, so were a lot of other people who were allowed to continue whatever it was they were doing in DTD. I don't know how Disney could have been damned for not controlling a "situation like this". As far as we know right now, the kids weren't doing anything wrong. No fighting, no crudeness, no theft, no distruction of property, no drunkenness or drug activity...they aren't accused of doing any of those things. And I couldn't find anywhere in the article that says they were throwing gang signs or dressed like "gangbangers". I don't know...going on what info was presented in the article (which is the only info we have at this point), it doesn't sound like these kids were doing anything wrong other than refusing to leave. C'mon, none of you would get ticked off if you weren't causing any trouble and security walked up and told you to leave? I can't imagine the group of guards were too friendly about it either. You'd just say "sure!!!" and leave? And they're banned from Disney for LIFE? The story says that one kid got a little smart-mouthed (which amazes me considering the situation). How many times have we heard about park guests cursing like sailors inside the parks? _____ How could they just get up and leave...a parent dropped them off at DTD. Are there a lot of busses that run at midnight? Just curious.
Originally Posted By mele BlueOhanaTerror wrote: <<I doubt there's anywhere near as much danger of violence breaking out among white teens>> <<The only thing those white kids in their Calvin Kleins can hide, are condoms or weed.>> It's funny that you throw out statements like these and then scoff at the thought that the security guards might have targeted these kids because of their skin color. Just from your posts in this thread it's pretty clear that you feel white kids are more innocent than blacks and hispanics.
Originally Posted By mele And one last thought since I have insomnia and won't be sleeping at all tonight...I'd say the damned if you do/damned if you don't comment also goes for these kids. These kids are college bound...I know that doesn't necessarily mean much but what if these kids have worked hard at their sport, graduated high school and kept their noses clean...what is their reward in this case? People will say "well we all know football players are trouble-makers. They're the biggest jerks around". What in the heck are these kids supposed to do? Other than one kid getting a little smart-mouthed, we've got no evidence these kids are bad yet because they're going to college to play football, they've just GOT to be guilty. So all football players are jerks? Then why do you all watch the friggin' SuperBowl if they're all such creeps? Does this apply to all athletes? How many of you were on your school sports teams or had children on sports teams? What do these kids have to do to before we don't automatically assume that they're thugs?
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<What in the heck are these kids supposed to do?>> Leave, maybe? Last week I went out with my dog. I ran into Wal-Mart for literally three minutes, came back out and walked himacross the street to PetSmart. Then I got back in my car, drove a half mile and was about to go into the mall for another few minutes. In that time someone called the police, because they saw my dog in the car while I was inside Wal-Mart, and thought it was too hot. There are ordinances here to not leave your dog in the car in warm conditions. He advised me to leave. I thought that was ridiculous since I knew I was only going into the mall for less than five minutes... but I left. <<Other than one kid getting a little smart-mouthed, we've got no evidence these kids are bad yet because they're going to college to play football, they've just GOT to be guilty.>> We have no evidence the other way either, and the way the stories are presented, these kids are good because they're going to college to play football, they've just GOT to be innocent. I don't have an answer. It's entirely possible these kids did absolutely nothing wrong. Well, they did throw a few choice words, and they didn't take a hint or two. Maybe in the future kids should forget about dressing gansta if they don't want to be hassled?
Originally Posted By mele Where does the article say how they were dressed? It's also unclear exactly what went down when they were asked to leave. Did they just get mouthy about leaving? How many times were they asked to leave and how many times did they refuse? We don't have that info yet it seems that everyone has decided that these kids deserved what they got. Maybe because of their ages, their skin color, their college careers, their supposed clothing? So, they were told to leave...where were they supposed to go while waiting for their parents to pick them up? I don't feel like the article is saying that the kids have to be good because they play football. They went to DTD together to bond because they would be on the team next year. Other than that, I don't see any mention of how that supposedly means that they are innocent. Honestly, if anyone here says that they wouldn't be ticked off at being asked to leave when they were doing nothing wrong then they are full of baloney. There are threads here every week about how people didn't like the way a CM treated them, didn't like the words the CM used while asking them to step aside.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Where does the article say how they were dressed?>> Nowhere; I was only throwing out some thoughts. But I've seen enough teens to know a lot of them dress like hoodlums, even if they're good kids. <<I don't feel like the article is saying that the kids have to be good because they play football.>> I guess it could be interpreted either way depending on what side of the fence you're standing on. But why bother to say they are "top FSU prospects" at all? How is it germain to the story, other than to tell me they are winners as opposed to losers? <<There are threads here every week about how people didn't like the way a CM treated them, didn't like the words the CM used while asking them to step aside.>> In a lot of those cases, people don't say anything, or even bother to complain... they just let it happen. No arguing or smarmy attitude.
