Originally Posted By mele <<top FSU prospects" at all? How is it germain to the story, other than to tell me they are winners as opposed to losers?<< I just thought of it as a way to personalize the story to the readers in the area. Plus, it mentions that they were hanging out to bond before starting school. (I'm pretty sure the teens didn't use the word "bonding". LOL) People like little facts about people...they like to hear something that connects them to the story. The boys will be on the team, they might be in the news more. I don't know, I didn't think they mentioned it to imply that if the boys were on the football team, they must be clean cut, nice boys.
Originally Posted By DAR Just because these kids were FSU prospects doesn't mean they are stand up citizens. It is FSU after all.
Originally Posted By DAR <<Just from your posts in this thread it's pretty clear that you feel white kids are more innocent than blacks and hispanics.>> I mentioned early in this thread the problems we were having here at one of our malls. Sadly the majority of the problems involved minorities. It doesn't always happen, but it does.
Originally Posted By mele Just because these kids were FSU prospects doesn't mean they are stand up citizens. It is FSU after all.>> I know...but it seems like the fact that they play football is being used against them. I find it kind of bizarre.
Originally Posted By danyoung Really? It seems more to me that the media is using this football thing to try to give the kids some kind of credibility that they wouldn't otherwise have.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Mele ... the voice of sanity and reason here. Keep up the good work and intelligent posts in this thread. The Spirit is with you! Amazing how quick to judge some folks are.
Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-disney2907jun29" target="_blank">http://www.orlandosentinel.com /news/local/orange/orl-disney2907jun29</a>,0,5458100.story >>Disney reverses 4 teens' lifetime ban The four Florida State University football prospects who were kicked out of Downtown Disney for loitering last week and banned for life from Walt Disney World can now come back. Disney World announced Thursday that it has decided to reduce the sanctions against the four high-schoolers, whose banishment last weekend amplified a controversy about Disney's recent efforts to reduce teen loitering and sparked accusations of racial profiling. All four of the students are 17 years old and black. Disney officials, after talking with the mother of one of the teens, decided to revise the trespass warnings so that the four are banned only from Downtown Disney -- not from the theme parks, water parks or other parts of Disney World. And the Downtown Disney ban will last only for one year, not a lifetime. That means that, shortly after they are ready to graduate from high school next spring -- they'll all be seniors this fall -- the ban will be lifted entirely. But the families of the teens were uncertain Thursday how to respond to Disney's decision. One parent said they would discuss it and get back to Disney today. "We were hoping they would lift the ban entirely. We felt like they shouldn't have been banned at all. We also wanted an apology," said Mark Nugent, stepfather of Vincent Williams, a football star at Ridge Community High School in Polk County. "It looks like we're not getting either of those two things." Final decision, not an offer Disney has not changed its mind about the incident last Friday and is not contemplating an apology, spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said. She also said the move to reduce the sanctions was a final decision by the resort, not an offer. Polak would not elaborate on what had emerged during discussions with the four teens' families that led Disney World to scale back its sanctions against the students, all of whom have given oral commitments to attend Florida State University in 2008. "Our review of the incident has not changed our determination that the behavior of these four individuals was not appropriate," Polak said. Crackdown on loitering The four students -- who, in addition to Williams, also included Nigel Carr, Avis Commack and Nickolas Moody -- were kicked off Disney property as part of larger crackdown on youth loitering this month that has resulted in dozens of trespass warnings and banishments. Polak said Thursday's decision does not affect the other trespass cases, though Disney could reconsider any case if asked.<< More on the story at the link
Originally Posted By halley123 I don't really care what they were doing there. They broke the rule and refused to listen to security. So therefore you are thrown out. They have a similar policy at the mall of America that the employees in the mall are allowed to throw out anyone 18 and under. They also would have been thrown out no matter what color there skin was.
Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror >>>BlueOhanaTerror wrote: <<I doubt there's anywhere near as much danger of violence breaking out among white teens>> <<The only thing those white kids in their Calvin Kleins can hide, are condoms or weed.>> It's funny that you throw out statements like these and then scoff at the thought that the security guards might have targeted these kids because of their skin color. Just from your posts in this thread it's pretty clear that you feel white kids are more innocent than blacks and hispanics.<<< Well, I'm not a "white kid", Mele, so you need to think a little harder. I said the white kids in their CALVINS - and you know what kind of picture that paints... preppy, self-absorbed upper-middle class kids are probably NOT going to be doing any gang-banging. You can't argue this. All the stats pretty much back that up. You're making assumptions of your own for convenience' sake, and I don't think you're the voice of reason... I think you want to BALANCE the dialogue - which is good... but I don't think you're being intellectually honest with the situation. Those security guards certainly aren't perfect, but they know they could be FIRED if they bring on bad blood and a horde of folks accusing Disney of being racist. And there's every evidence that they've been holding off on this type of action, and studying visitor patterns, for an awfully long time. We ALL know (at least those of us who have visited Downtown Disney in the last five years) that the situation there has gotten TERRIBLE, and the loudest, rowdiest troublemakers tend to be the demographic of which we're speaking. Since the BET club went in, there's been a steep rise in violent incidences as well. It's one thing to be racist, it's another to be tolerant, and it's altogether another thing to simply be obtuse to reality. Reality is, Disney's teams HAVE to do something, or the situation is going to deteriorate into havoc. One incidence is all it takes to stain that resort forever - one violent shooting where some kid gets killed by a gangster. That's the end of Downtown Disney. I'd rather they err on the side of caution, regardless of whose feelings are hurt.
Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror >>>Really? It seems more to me that the media is using this football thing to try to give the kids some kind of credibility that they wouldn't otherwise have.<<< Agreed. It's amazing that we're so beholden to vaunted illusions of tolerance, when all that tolerance eventually ends up reaping violence.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Mele ... the voice of sanity and reason here.>> I've been very careful to choose my words, as have a few others. As I said, it's possible they did nothing wrong and Disney security overreacted; we just don't know. Who's to say many other groups of young black or hispanic teens were not stopped by security?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^^^^^^^ I have held off since this is a slippery slope no matter how ones comes at it -- alwasy has been... But I go back to 1 fact -- they did not do what they were asked, the fact that it appears they had words to tell the security officers -- tells me a few things: 1/ These are not poor kids here - they are well heeled and connected so to speak -- and I get the impression they felt above the law in whatever they did because of who mommy or daddy is. This attitude knows no racial boundary.... I live in a very well to do area - and while it is about 75% majority - every kid seems to act the same way -- like their doodoo doesn't stink, and 'you can't tell me what to do'. I am thinking this had as much to do with this incident as anything else ( and hope that is true ) - as I see it all the time by me -- and our local mall has similar 'group' rules. More than a few times when I was 16-17 my mouth got me into trouble because the testosterone is flowing and you become very stupid....( and I likely would have been worse if I was not some poor kid who they just picked up and threw in jail )
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Mele ... the voice of sanity and reason here. Keep up the good work and intelligent posts in this thread. The Spirit is with you! Amazing how quick to judge some folks are. << OK, next time I start talking about something I know nothing about Spirit, I hope you will be kind enough to support me. I'm sure the occasion will arise several times in this forum. >> There's not enough info for us to really know what was going on but it bothers me that kids would be busted for loitering in a place that most of us here on LP have loitered in (in FL or CA). << Let's see...you freely admit that there is not enough known about this case to make a judgement. Then why are there 6 seperate post by you supporting these young lads. You've already said you don't have enough info. I'm sure you don't have the police report, I'm sure you wouldn't think the Disney Corp. or the Orange County Sheriffs Dept. are racist unless there was over whelming evidence. I'm sure your not saying it's not a good idea to make DD a safer place that everyone can enjoy. I'm really inclined to believe the Disney Security people, and the Orange County authorities until proof comes out to show I misplaced my trust.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 I believe most people interpret things from experiences in their own lives. That's why there are always at least 3 sides to every story, "yours, mine & the truth." Newspapers don't always tell an unbiased story, the people in trouble are always "innocent" and many people in authority abuse it. So, someday we may know the complete truth about this incident. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying watching everyone's comments.
Originally Posted By mele Hm, because generally I thought that we were supposed to believe people were innocent until proven guilty. You're just ticked because you want to slam these kids w/o any facts to back it up. Yes, I made 6 posts restating the "facts" from the article...most of the post slamming the kids are from things that people assumed about the kids, not things the kids actually did. I'd rather be the person who at least asks for more facts about these kids before I talk about how awful they are. I am not the only one who feels this way but many LPers are just so sick of fighting these same battles that they just spend even less time on LP. There are far more stories of racism and discrimination in this country than people who use the race card in the press. To say that there isn't is just wishful thinking. Our history is ripe with it. It is not ALWAYS a way for a black person to get away with something they did wrong. Sometimes it does happen. BlueOhana, I never said which color of skin i thought you had but the tone of your posts definitely shows biases. You made your posts for people to see...doesn't bother me if you think I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not the only one who has interpreted in this way. I can only make comments on what you post here. I never called anyone on this forum a racist so I'm not sure why people are starting to get nasty. (Could it be that Darkbeer and I are, for once, on the same side?!? LOL)
Originally Posted By mele I have a really bratty 15 year old son so believe me, I know how really horrible they can get, beyond what a lot of parents can imagine. But I also know some really great teenaged kids and after all I've been through with my own son, I'm glad that I can still entertain the notion that all teenagers aren't punks.
Originally Posted By danyoung >I'm glad that I can still entertain the notion that all teenagers aren't punks.< Sorry - I just wanted to repeat that one line. Go about with your bickering - I just wanted to revel in a truly memorable statement.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>I'm glad that I can still entertain the notion that all teenagers aren't punks.< Sorry - I just wanted to repeat that one line. Go about with your bickering - I just wanted to revel in a truly memorable statement< while that's absolutely true ( and being the parent of one child just out of their teens and another entering ) - I think I can speak from experience also when biewing their peers that Father Flanagan wasn't right either in saying there are no bad boys (or girls)- yes there are. And 'most' teenagers get mouthy - especially when with their peers - it is the age when they are seeking freedom, pushing boundaries , testing limits ......most of the time it doesn't even approach anything related to criminal behavior ...and it passes quickly ...but I still believe it was a major part of this activity. Does that make them all criminals - no. Does it make them teenagers - yes it does. I don't want to rush to judge people on something I was not there for, but I am not ready to canonize them all either for the same reason
Originally Posted By mele <<I don't want to rush to judge people on something I was not there for, but I am not ready to canonize them all either for the same reason>> I agree completely, that's my point. I wasn't trying to canonize the teens...I was just going by what was in the article and trying to have a discussion about the different aspects of DTD, racial profiling, etc. Instead of discussing the points I brought up, I am just told that I don't know anything (an interesting debating tactic.) If anyone would like to present some facts about this particular case that weren't in the link, please do so. Until then, everything is conjecture. It wouldn't surprise me if the kids were real jerks. We just don't know what happened.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss Frankly, the title of the thread, while factual, is provocative. It could easily have been more neutral; "Disney bans group of teens at DtD," or the other way, "Rowdy teens banned from Disney for life."
