Originally Posted By Sweeper Being able to openly admit that there is a problem is the first step to fixing it. I think the point of this thread was the years of open denial must be over. I like DCA, but it is also not up to what I would consider a Disney experience...yet. I don't mean built-out, finished, but at least more flesh on the bones. Place Making should address the atmosphere issue which may be a bigger problem than I think. A few more attractions like Monsters, in other areas of the park, would help to give the Disney feel. Themed spinners are okay but Mulholland Madness was just insulting. No more stock rides with lame overlays. Why Disney ever allowed Dino-Rama at AK after the disaster on MM is beyond me. Additions like these just say "We're going cheap because the public is stupid." Insulting. I think Matt and company understand the problem and the day Route 66 is demolished to make way for an immersive experience of true Disney quality will be the day I know the era of "Six Flags Disney" is over.
Originally Posted By Nemo88 and Walt admitted Disneyland was a work in progress 50 years ago,no news here.
Originally Posted By Sweeper Is there ever news when it comes to DCA? Rumor and debate is all that we have most of the time. Bad habits die hard.
Originally Posted By Socrates Is there anything in this world that wouldn't benefit from some improvement? Socrates "Other than me, of course."
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Additions like these just say "We're going cheap because the public is stupid." >>> I think the public has delivered the message loud and clear regarding DCA: they are in fact NOT stupid and are generally speaking not willing to pay full price for what's currently on offer.
Originally Posted By Westsider Was Epcot in 1987 considered a "work in progress", or was it a full fledged theme park? Was DisneySea in 2006 a "work in progress" or is it a full fledged theme park? (One that packed in 12 Million customers at full fare in 2005 by the way) There have been really crummy second gate theme parks built by Disney besides DCA; Walt Disney Studios Paris comes to mind. But there have also been second gates built by Disney that have been full fledged works of art from opening day, and certainly 5 years after they opened they were fully fleshed out concepts with lots of healthy growth still ahead of them. If DCA is now being called a "work in progress" 5 years after it opened, then what was all that DCA hype from Disney back in 2000 and 2001?!? Was it lies? Or just a huge mistake?
Originally Posted By woody DCA was hype. I think they thought DCA circa 2001 was good enough to pack them in.
Originally Posted By bean If TDS was not a work in progress then there wouldn't be new construction and placemaking considerations being taken place. All Disney parks are work in progress even the ones that look like they are perfect. TDS is gorgeous but it has it fault and has and will continue to go thru some placemaking and attraction developement to correct some problems being evaluated WDS Paris is just a mess that will need lots of tender loving care
Originally Posted By bean By the way WDS Paris had to be built because of contractual obligations that stated that a second gate had to be built in a certain amount of time or the land could go up for other development.
Originally Posted By 9oldmen >>All Disney parks are work in progress even the ones that look like they are perfect.<< Right, but after a certain point, saying things like "DCA just needs a little work, as do all their other parks", becomes like saying,"So what if Michael Jackson has had some cosmetic surgery. So have most celebrities his age". It's a question of HOW MUCH work is being done on the park, only five years after it has opened.
Originally Posted By oc_dean You know something though ... the phrase "a work in progress" has a whole different cnynical take for DCA than DL in 1955. Have we forgotten the team behind DCA were all to willing to let the footprint for ToT go for several years (which was in place prior to Feb 8,2001).... If DCA was the 'smashing success' they so arogantly thought? Look how rushed "Who Wants to be Millionaire" was put into place - now an empty shell. How about the half-backed FFF ... as cute as it may be .... the overall execution was not well thought out. They reacted fast to "there's not much for kids" .. So, they went and built something FAST for kids .. instead of taking the lessons of rides like Casey Jr. Circus train which was a bit more sophisticated for even adults to enjoy. DCA's history ... as far as that "work in.." line goes .. goes more like this: We have a complete parrr.... Oh, excuse us, let us race to get some things in we left out .. we NOW consider this park a 'work in progress.'
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< TDS is gorgeous but it has it fault and has and will continue to go thru some placemaking and attraction developement to correct some problems being evaluated >>> Please share the details that you know. We all know about ToT being built, and Raging Spirits that opened last year. But what placemaking are you talking about? Also, what attractions or restaurants that were there on opening day have been ripped out or rethemed? What attraction, new or old, looks like it doesn't belong where it is and was just plunked down? TDS is a totally different situation from DCA.
Originally Posted By Mr X What exactly is placemaking anyway? If it means what I think it does, DisneySea has never done anything remotely like it.
Originally Posted By Park Hopper I hate to say this, Mr. X, but yes it has. That whole waterfront park area fits the description of a place-making project.
Originally Posted By Mr X Okay then, I need to know what that means exactly. Yeah, the waterfront park is a new addition and all (I understood it was a needed space for special events, plus an addition to the area that would soon be crowded with ToT patrons. To me "placemaking" sounds like something to "hold a place" like a lot of those DCA rides that weren't anything special, but just "something" to fill in space til they came up with something better. No?
Originally Posted By bean The term "placemaking" as used by Disney for its new parks is basically reviewing the overall park and see what areas of the park need a little help to emphasis its overal theming. Sometimes it could be a matter of propper signage or additional props to help people understand the story behind the area. Some times it could detail redesigning a certain area of the park to help out more. In DCA's HPB the area needed to be redesign to add a bit more of an understanding of why it was actually there. The whole HPB was suppose to be a backlot. problem was that the main street facades were a bit too detailed compared to the abrupt scaffolding and stage look of the corner area of the park. So eventhough the whole area is still consider a film studio backlot and its represented that way by its studio numbers on the top of the buildings Disney decided to emphasis the back corner a bit more but at the same time not make it look so drastic. basically a few gardens and fountains as well as a few signs were added to give the area a less drastic industrial stage faclity look. Other areas like the entrance of the park will get some placemaking to help explain the vague storyline of the park and at the same time to help beautify it. All new parks go thru this process. WDS and TDS will also go thru similiar process but not all of them are extensive. In TDS one of the areas that has been looked ta has been the American wtaerfront. With the addition of signage reconfiguration of walkways the storyline sometimes gets panned out a bit more. With the addition of Raging Spirits small references to the soon to open TOT were added and when TOT does open other "placemaking" projects will get done to help the audience understand the overall idea that the imagineers were going for. Like i said some projects are more extensive than other. Superdry, no one is saying that resturants will be closed or opened or even rethemed and i laos did not compare DCA to TDS. Yes they are two difrent parks. TDS is a gorgeous park but it DOES have its problems. They do not necessary have to do with the attractions that are there or its overal theming. They could be simple things like walkways not helping with the overall flow of pedestrain traffic or a storyline needing some help. Sometimes walkways need to be reworked so that attraction that are not getting enough clicks get some better recognition. Many times it has nothing to do with the attraction be inferior but with the flow of people in the park needing help. One problem that has been a concern with TDS has been its pedestrian flow pattern. Some people find it dificult to find there way around the park or to find certain attractions that need the clicks to meet attendance. A major concern with TDS after its second year of opening was the complain of the quanitity of attractions. Although there was a second phase proposal for the park it was not suppose to be so soon. Raging Spirit was an attraction that could be added in a short time and at the same time add some need footwork in that area of the park. TOT was also pushed forward in its construction and would have most likely opened sooner than it will if it was not for the extra concerns of its weight versus the land its being built on. There were two attractions in consideration to open at TDS for its second phase. TOT was chosen becuase it was a proven hit and the ride system would be copied from the already considered system that would be used for Paris TOT which was eventually built at DCA first. The attractions look was then redesigned to fit the land it is being built on. They were actually hoping to have the attraction opened sooner but because several test had to be done to the ground to make sure that it could withstand the weight of such a heavy show building. To help fill the gap/timeline of the parks opening to TOT opening raging Spirits was the next fastest decision. So you see i am not defending DCA or saying that TDS has the same problems as DCA, i was just saying that all new parks are a work in progress. Some just need more help than others. DCA needs to keep the momentum going in its increase of attendance and at the same time convince people that it could stand on its own and TDS needs to make sure its newness does not subside and at the same time not cannibalize Tokyo disneyland Parks attednace.
Originally Posted By SuperDry Great comments, bean. If I may ask, where do you get your background information?
Originally Posted By woody "The whole HPB was suppose to be a backlot. problem was that the main street facades were a bit too detailed compared to the abrupt scaffolding and stage look of the corner area of the park." That's the problem. The main street facades are not detailed enough. It is worse when you go inside. The exterior detail doesn't extend inside. Everything looks disjointed. I wouldn't describe TDS' issues in the same way. They are really fixing minor concerns and issues on the theming. The main problem would be the attractions mix. I would love for DCA to have TDS' problems, but I guess I will have to visit Tokyo.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< That's the problem. The main street facades are not detailed enough. It is worse when you go inside. The exterior detail doesn't extend inside. Everything looks disjointed. >>> One thing that occurred to me a few months ago is just what you describe: DCA has quite a bit of things that look disjointed. It appears to me that as budgets were being adjusted (i.e. "cut"), they were not evenly applied to various projects. There are many things in the park that look like where planned to be a certain way originally, then last-minute cost-cutting design changes had to be made, and because of the last-minute nature of the cuts, they affected some attractions/areas/elements more than others. You can be standing next to an attraction whose queue and signage are completely fitting with the Disney tradition and have the one a few feet away look like it was done at the last minute, or at the very least by a totally different team. You don't tend to see this sort of thing across the esplanade, or at TDS.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney DCA may be a "work in progress" in 2006. But I'll tell you what, in 2000 and 2001 it was a "work of arrogance."
