Originally Posted By oc_dean >>I have a feeling HKDL is going to be the albatros around the companies neck for a long time to come.<< They never learn their lessons do they? cough-DCA/WDSP-cough
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Nope they never do!! I'm at least hoping though that this is all old regeime mistakes only and NEW regieme HAVE learned from them though and why I have a tinge of little faith Shanghai might actually be a worthy park from day one....but still highly cautious. I think its the first time ever that I'm not excited a Disney park is even being built, that says a lot. But, we'll see. The new people were at least the ones to recognize DCA was a complete joke and was never going to get any real interest from people and actually got the billion to get up to the Disney standard (I still think how funny it is the additions will cost nearly twice as much as it did to build that crappy park from the ground up ). But why this one is having so much trouble doing the same I dont know. I wish Leemac or someone in the know would respond.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Has the "start small and build out later" concept ever worked for Disney? I know that they did it first with MGM, and it's a fairly successful park these days, but I still can't bring myself to say that it's not a half-day park. Unfortunately, the budgeteers only see the drastically reduced price tag and say that's enough, but I don't think that it's an even remotely vaible option for any park. While the later additions may bring the park to a full day's worth of activities, it will always have that lingering stigma of being short on stuff to do. I still don't know if people planning their vacations to WDW even consider the fact that they might want to spend an entire day there. Has there ever been real success in building out a park that starts a little on the lean side?
Originally Posted By Anatole69 ^^ No. Not unless TDS counts as a little lean at start. I know Disney deserves blame for how the park started, but it takes two to tango. The HK government should take some of the blame for dickering over the cash infusion. Seems that with the global recession, both Disney and the HK government have gotten cold feet over ponying up the needed cash. - Anatole
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Has the "start small and build out later" concept ever worked for Disney? I know that they did it first with MGM, and it's a fairly successful park these days, but I still can't bring myself to say that it's not a half-day park. >>> The key difference is that it's a third gate at a resort where people were already making multi-day stays on average. Same with DAK as a 4th gate - not a big deal when most guests are on property for several days and have parkhoppers. A half-day first gate with absolutely nothing else to do at the resort is an entirely different matter.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>I mean look at DAK, DCA, WDSP and this park. NONE of them had any real plans at opening on how to expand after opening even <<<< Um, at DAK, Asia was phase 2 and had even more attractions planned as well as beastly kingdom. And at WDSP, there is a mastplan for it to nearly tripple in size, and we knew where ToT would go from day 1 as La Terrace already had the HtH crest in place.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>It shouldnt take more then 5 years to get an E ticket ride when these parks barely had one at opening.<<< And the majority of WDSP opening attractions were e-tickets - Moteurs Action, RNR Coaster, you could even potentially argue the Tram Tour, Cinemagique and Armageddon were E's.
Originally Posted By leemac <<But why this one is having so much trouble doing the same I dont know. I wish Leemac or someone in the know would respond.>> It is the problem with having a sovereign government for a partner. Instead of working with a CEO and his/her team as a partner Disney ended up with bureauracy that is Byzantine in structure - the HK SAR government is hugely complex for such a small state. The government was very risk-adverse in the first instance. <<Disney and the HK government have gotten cold feet over ponying up the needed cash.>> I don't think it is appropriate to blame Disney in this respect - they brought all of the HKDLR loans back on to TWDC's books last year as they saw the need for new financing (whether debt or equity) last year and this made it easier so they have had the desire to resolve this impasse. Ultimately I never saw the need for a specific local WDI team except for Show Quality Standards. It is a terrible shame that thirty people will lose their jobs - particularly as many of them are ex-pats who will have to either find other work or risk being deported. The TDR ;local WDI team is relatively small and manages to work well with the folks back in Glendale and with many of the Asia Pacific functions being merged - including the WDI portfolio of HKDLR/TDR it makes sense to scale down until an agreement can be reached.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney >>>I mean look at DAK, DCA, WDSP and this park. NONE of them had any real plans at opening on how to expand after opening even <<<< <<Um, at DAK, Asia was phase 2 and had even more attractions planned as well as beastly kingdom. And at WDSP, there is a mastplan for it to nearly tripple in size, and we knew where ToT would go from day 1 as La Terrace already had the HtH crest in place.>> Yeah Dave, but the key word is 'planned' . Very little of it actually happened like this is right now. I did forget about 'Asia' at DAK though, but that was basically another animal trail and that weak Kali rapids ride. A okay start, but very from real expansion, especially with a park that litterally only had about 5 attractions to begin with. DAK actually has the worst line up in the history of Disney parks, but its cut the most slack because its the 4th park in an already huge resort and its obvious it was a park built with tremendous care and imagination. DAK looks like its always been there, but the lack of never putting in Beastly Kingdom or creating more attractions after 11 years of operation is sad. As for WDSP, no comment .
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<But why this one is having so much trouble doing the same I dont know. I wish Leemac or someone in the know would respond.>> <<It is the problem with having a sovereign government for a partner. Instead of working with a CEO and his/her team as a partner Disney ended up with bureauracy that is Byzantine in structure - the HK SAR government is hugely complex for such a small state. The government was very risk-adverse in the first instance.>> Good point about government vs company executives. Sad these people cant come to an agreement eitherway. I said it before, I felt the HK government got screwed on the first deal in the first place, but they wanted a Disney park THAT badly and now look where they are at. I think now they dont want to be run over again, but whats done is done now. The park is there, if they want it to survive, throw the money needed and get some bigger attractions in there within the next two years. I mean at the rate its going and the latest impasse, I have a feeling its going to be quite a few years before there is any major expansion down the road.
Originally Posted By Schmitty Good Vibes Interesting, leemac. But what would you say if HK SAR had a CEO that could REKW with TDR and HKDLR & WKRST for TWDC with WDI HKDLR/TDR WDI and adding DAP's for DCA????
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<A half-day first gate with absolutely nothing else to do at the resort is an entirely different matter.>> Exactly, thats the difference here, a major one. I said this in my other posts here, but if they are going to open parks in a NEW market, open a full freaking day park. Why they arrogantly they were going to get people knocking down the doors with a park of a dozen attractions and the most expensive theme park in China is beyound me. What were these people thinking?? At least with the other half day parks, they were anchored by major full day parks. Even if any of those parks truly failed the resorts goes on. If HKDL fails, even though I dont see that happening, that's it.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I would love to read the risk management matrix and profile they had going on HKDL. That would make for a really interesting read.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<The key difference is that it's a third gate at a resort where people were already making multi-day stays on average. Same with DAK as a 4th gate - not a big deal when most guests are on property for several days and have parkhoppers. A half-day first gate with absolutely nothing else to do at the resort is an entirely different matter.>> Exactly. More to the point, it's also a MK park (and those are the flagships if you will of Disney). You can't come into a new market, which has many Westerners residing and a very cosmopolitan population in general and build a Disneyland Lite and pretend it is something more than it was. I love the resort, but I love HK. And I am not the target demo for this park. It is astounding to me that in 2009 we sit here and there still are so few attractions and none apparently happening until we see which side's going to blink first. It's all very dumb ... on both sides' part. If the goal is for this place to succeed than it needs to grow a lot and fast ... like double the attraction count. Sounds to me like the people 'negotiating' on both sides need to be replaced. ~Anyone know where the original park rendering is being hidden?~
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Exactly, thats the difference here, a major one. I said this in my other posts here, but if they are going to open parks in a NEW market, open a full freaking day park. Why they arrogantly they were going to get people knocking down the doors with a park of a dozen attractions and the most expensive theme park in China is beyound me. What were these people thinking??>> They were thinking with greed and $$$ and little else. Disney wanted to get into China and HK was the logical first step. They convinced the locals that HKDL would be a smash. They sold them on a park and then cut 60% of it out. There's only one thing that's going to make HKDL a long term success and both TWDC and the SAR know this ... and that's expansion, significant expansion. ~We never said there'd be a Frontierland or a Toontown. What? You have press releases ... uhm ... please leave now!!!~
Originally Posted By trekkeruss All I can say is, if Disney and Shanghai are going to open a park, I hope they are watching and learning from this.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^I'm hoping to, but I'm not holding my breath. Like someone said earlier, they shouldve learned from DCA and WDSP that opening up a half day park is beyound stupid. What I find funny now is when DCA first opened, there were a million excuses why it didnt attract the crowds but the obvious one. Eight years later and everyone has FINALLY agreed the park was too small and too unoriginal, so they finally are doing something about it. For HKDL, ironically I have ONLY heard this excuse why the park isnt getting more people into the park, no other reasons. I guess the spin of people wanting to come to HKDL just to take picture days are now over . Why do they keep bothering with this model if it fails time and time again?? I dont get it? Disney has opened a total of 5 parks within the last eleven years. Four half day parks and one full day one: DAK, DCA, TDS, WDSP and HKDL. And whats the ONLY park that actually reached its first year attendence goals at opening? TDS Not only did it achieve its goals its suceeded them by several million its first year opening while all the others came well under by a million or several more. In fact places like DCA and HKDL (Not sure what attendence for WDSP is these days) havent achieved them yet, what is considered modest attendance goals as well. It tells you build a full day park with innovative attractions, people will turn out for it. Even DLP, with all the money problems its facing had nothing to do with the actual park, just trying to get all those people to stay in six overpriced Disney hotels and the park suffered for it. Well, I guess they learned their lesson with THAT at least . But like I said earlier, with a new regieme things will hopefully be different in Shanghai or I at least hope the Shanghai government wouldnt be as stupid to give Disney anything they want just so they can be fitted with a nice albatros in a few years time .
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<They were thinking with greed and $$$ and little else. Disney wanted to get into China and HK was the logical first step. They convinced the locals that HKDL would be a smash. They sold them on a park and then cut 60% of it out.>> Yep, all true!! Disney was the ultimate snake oil salesmen. They convinced HK the park will be such a phenonmenal sucess, they actually managed to get the government to fork over billions of dollars AFTER they took out 50% of what they sold them on in the first place. Amazing!! These negotiaters shouldnt be working for Disney, they should be negotiating with Iran and North Korea to give up their nukes with those kind of results ;D. Even Madoff is looking at them with eny. This guy lied to swindle people out of the money, but Disney did it all upfront with a smiley face. <<There's only one thing that's going to make HKDL a long term success and both TWDC and the SAR know this ... and that's expansion, significant expansion.>> And that's what is so funny about all of this. Everyone seems to know what the solution is. Its not anymore discounting, seasonal shows, one or two solid e-tickets etc like they tried for years with DCA, its simply a bigger expansion, a HUGE one, to curtail the image HKDL is a tiny cookie cutter clone that isnt worth the admission price. Everyone knows that, they either bite the bullet and cough up the dough to make it happen or simply open the gates up and sale the rides individually like the old days. Because if you cant get enough people in a park where the local AP price is under $100 and mainlanders are getting 60% discounts now just to go, something is wong. <<~We never said there'd be a Frontierland or a Toontown. What? You have press releases ... uhm ... please leave now!!!~>> LOL!!
Originally Posted By HongKongDisneyLand if HKDL fails, it reflects poorly on WDC and Hong Kong Government. I don't see they getting any favourable terms from the negotiation table with City of Shanghai for the 1st Disney Theme Park in Mainland China particularly HKDL is on the brink of collapsing. Do they learn anything? I highly doubted. History often repeats itself.
