Originally Posted By Mr X ***I think faith is an amazing thing. Blind faith, however, no.*** And yet we see it all the time. Hardly exclusive to Josh, sad to say. ***If the church leadership was all together on the idea, and it dame from their official positions - I would follow their counsel. Even if I disagreed with it for some reason. That's scary to some, I know. Not to me.*** I sincerely doubt you'll reply to this, but I'd be very curious to hear your opinion on the Catholics who said this very same thing as it pertained to their church systematically covering up the widespread raping of young children by their own Priests. Do you admire them for it? Think it's an admirable act of faith to stand behind their church even on this issue? (I'm speaking to the blind-faith Catholics who supported everything 100%, or tried to deny it...NOT necessarily to the folks who condemned it, yet remained with the church) So what say you Josh?
Originally Posted By utahjosh I think covering up sexual abuse is always wrong. I don't have faith in the pope. I do have fath my church leaders are inspired by god so they won't ask anything amiss. I'll let you know of that ever happens (it won't). I don't care if you call it blind faith.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I think covering up sexual abuse is always wrong. I don't have faith in the pope. I do have fath my church leaders are inspired by god so they won't ask anything amiss. I'll let you know of that ever happens (it won't). I don't care if you call it blind faith.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I think covering up sexual abuse is always wrong. I don't have faith in the pope. I do have fath my church leaders are inspired by god so they won't ask anything amiss. I'll let you know of that ever happens (it won't). I don't care if you call it blind faith.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I think covering up sexual abuse is always wrong. I don't have faith in the pope. I do have fath my church leaders are inspired by god so they won't ask anything amiss. I'll let you know of that ever happens (it won't). I don't care if you call it blind faith.>> Really? It will never happen, huh? This is a must-read article for everyone participating in this discussion, especially Josh: <a href="http://mormonmatters.org/2009/09/23/the-growing-mormon-sex-abuse-scandal/" target="_blank">http://mormonmatters.org/2009/...scandal/</a> "Because of the paucity of these cases in Utah, I raised the issue above as to whether Church Headquarters is even aware of them. That question, on further reflection, was rather naïve. Of course the brethren in Salt Lake City know about these cases. Is there any indication that they are worried about them? For example, are there signs that they engaged in strategic litigation in 1990s Catholic cases, where the LDS Church was not a party? If so, this might be a sign that the LDS Church leadership knew exactly what the future might portend. In the course of my research, I stumbled on Martinelli v. Bridgeport Roman Catholic Diocesan Corp [25], a case in which a former parishioner brought action against the Diocese in the late 1990s, seeking compensation for child sexual abuse by priest. Following the jury finding that Diocese had breached fiduciary duty it owed to parishioner, the Diocese moved for judgment as a matter of law. Guess who filed an amicus curae brief? You got it – the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, along with six other religious denominations. What does that brief argue? It took issue with the court’s use of an official church document to decide that there was indeed a fiduciary relationship between the priest and the victim. Doing so, according to the church’s lawyers, “creates a substantial chilling effect on the teaching and preaching of religious entities that must be corrected.” According to the brief: Religious language and imagery is by its nature imprecise. It invites the person seeking to know and do God’s will to some deeper understanding of his relationship with the divine through prayerful study and prudent application. The undisputed Scripture text or a pastoral metaphor is only the beginning of the inquiry from a religious perspective. It addresses a religious, not a civil legal, concern. It was beyond the imagination of the Diocese, or any religious body, that civil consequences would follow from an individual’s interpretation of theological text and be imprinted on a church body, or that its own agreement with doctrinal and liturgical positions would create liability. Using religious language and imagery to provide a civil rule of decision is enough to entangle the courts “excessively” in a religious matter. Beyond their imagination? Perhaps. But not after the Catholic Church started getting hit. Here is an expression of a very real concern that civil consequences would flow from religiously-mandated relationships that create liability for a religious organizations that heretofore had never stared into the abyss. That’s exactly what happened with the Catholics since then. It seems to be happening now in Mormondom ten years later. More cases will likely to follow. Be very afraid." These sex scandals are going to go very badly for Salt Lake leadership in the future. Given that an amicus curiae brief was filed by LDS regarding the Catholic case decision, years before the current Mormon scandals became known, definitely proves they knew something like this was going to hit them next. And now it has. Your church leaders have been sweating blood for the past decade regarding these Mormon sexual abuse criminal cases. They know that, like the Catholics, they're going to get financially slaughtered in the civil suits. That's what they really care about. They don't believe they're responsible for these abuses, even when Bishops withheld information that could have prevented the abuses in the first place. Imagine being a young Mormon who has a blind faith such as yours, Josh, in their church and its leaders. Then one of those leaders uses that blind faith to take sexual advantage of the young Mormon, which LDS leadership in Utah tries to hide or defend in court with character witnesses. That's what's going on now, right now. You don't have faith in the Pope, but you have faith in your leaders. Who are currently acting as the Vatican did regarding the Catholic sex scandals with their priests. Sorry, but anyone who puts that much blind faith into imperfect, fallible human beings is a fool. Period.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I do have fath my church leaders are inspired by god so they won't ask anything amiss. I'll let you know of that ever happens (it won't).<< It already has happened. Many, many times. In 1842, Joseph Smith called Orson Pratt away to a mission in England. While away he propositioned Pratt's wife Sarah and tried to convince her that she was supposed to become his wife. When she refused, Joseph threatened to ruin her reputation and publicly called her a whore. He also called Orson Hyde to dedicate Jerusalem for the return of Jesus. While away, Joseph Smith married his wife, Marinda. 10 of Joseph Smith's plural wives were already married to other men. All done behind his first wife, Emma's back, and these other men's backs. In the aftermath of the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre, Brigham Young instructed Mormons to lie about what happened and engage in a cover-up centering blame on scapegoat John D. Lee. In 1890, the LDS Church issued a manifesto saying it would no longer practice polygamy. It continued to practice it in secret and Church leaders asked men and women to continue to engage in it, then instructed them to lie to the government about it. Mormon leaders were among those who participated. In 1904 during the Reed Smoot hearings, LDS President Joseph F. Smith lied to Congress about these continued marriages, and was forced to issue a second manifesto denouncing them. And that's just the real obvious stuff. Mormon leaders have taught opposing doctrines. They've disagreed with each other publicly on matters of doctrine. They've disagreed in the LDS General Conference, where Mormons believe scripture is given. I know no one's really interested in the minutia of Mormon history, but I think it's important for Josh to see that the version of Mormonism he's concocted in his head is a myth; it doesn't exist. Church leaders have been "amiss" many times in the past, and they will be many times in the future. They've changed their teachings on the Book of Mormon, on sexuality, on polygamy, on race, on gender, and on a myriad of other topics. Something's amiss alright.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***LDS President Joseph F. Smith lied to Congress about these continued marriages, and was forced to issue a second manifesto denouncing them*** Isn't perjury before Congress a serious crime? Was he ever punished for it? (my guess is no...only the poor and powerless ever have to pay for their crimes, by and large)
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I think covering up sexual abuse is always wrong. I don't have faith in the pope. I do have fath my church leaders are inspired by god so they won't ask anything amiss. I'll let you know of that ever happens (it won't). I don't care if you call it blind faith.*** So I can surmise from this statement that if, in fact, your leaders do get caught in a coverup of this nature you will speak out against them here? Just curious. I also find it interesting that you seem to have faith in ALL your leaders, not just the infallible prophet at the top...even Catholics aren't crazy enough to go there, they call the Pope infallible and go to great lengths to shield him from any provable controversy, but trying to protect a number of people is practically BEGGING for a massive fail...I guess you are saying that ALL the people in powerful positions in your church are so infallible as to, without a doubt, never commit a serious moral or criminal wrongdoing? Jeez, even the apostles of Christ screwed up royally here and there! I guess your guys are even more perfect than they were!
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I think covering up sexual abuse is always wrong. I don't have faith in the pope. I do have fath my church leaders are inspired by god so they won't ask anything amiss. I'll let you know of that ever happens (it won't). I don't care if you call it blind faith.*** So I can surmise from this statement that if, in fact, your leaders do get caught in a coverup of this nature you will speak out against them here? Just curious. I also find it interesting that you seem to have faith in ALL your leaders, not just the infallible prophet at the top...even Catholics aren't crazy enough to go there, they call the Pope infallible and go to great lengths to shield him from any provable controversy, but trying to protect a number of people is practically BEGGING for a massive fail...I guess you are saying that ALL the people in powerful positions in your church are so infallible as to, without a doubt, never commit a serious moral or criminal wrongdoing? Jeez, even the apostles of Christ screwed up royally here and there! I guess your guys are even more perfect than they were!
Originally Posted By mele Saying that none of the LDS church leaders will never do anything "amiss" isn't blind faith. It's just plain stupidity.
Originally Posted By ecdc Well, and it's patently, demonstrably false. I could care less what Josh believes or thinks. But he's justifying his infringement of other's rights with a myth of the LDS Church (that leaders won't error) that anyone willing to spend a few minutes on Google can prove is not true. And Mormons will claim they don't believe leaders don't error, but what they mean is that leaders won't spill their milk or some other inconsequential detail. They do believe they're infallible when it comes to doctrine or directing members. And that concept is demonstrably false. Ergo, Josh has surrendered his free will based on a myth.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <They do believe they're infallible when it comes to doctrine or directing members. And that concept is demonstrably false. > Boy howdy. They've just recently been caught lying on their direct involvement on Prop 8. Not to mention the serious matters detailed in the last several posts. And the Prop 8 case ties directly and demonstrably to the issue of directing members. Something like that was born in deceit and no amount of spinning or justifying can change that.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Ergo, Josh has surrendered his free will based on a myth.>> Of course he has. It frees him from the burden of taking 100% full responsibility for his actions and decisions. If stuff in his life goes horribly wrong, he'll just chalk it up to "God's plan" for him and the "wisdom" of his LDS Elders. It's the coward's way out, naturally. But no one will ever get him to see that, because he wants to remain deaf, dumb, and blind. It lets him off the hook for being an independent sentient being with free will.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I claim full resposibility for every thought choice and action. You are completely and utterly wrong.
Originally Posted By utahjosh And I think you guys will finally get your way. I find nothing worthwhile from your hateful posts. WE is no longer interesting, fun, or enlightening.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I can see why you might be defensive. I wouldn't call them "hateful" - at least not MY posts - but I'm not surprised that you see it that way. But consider this - you have no defenders - everyone seems pretty well aligned on this topic except you. What does that tell you? Whatever it may "seem" like to you, this isn't just a case of everybody ganging up on Josh - it's a case of Josh refusing to acknowledge reality. Go ahead and turn tail and leave if you think that's best. Many of us don't understand why you have stayed around as long as you have. But you'll notice that no one has called for you to stop posting - instead we've responded to your posts with why your thinking is out of step with contemporary standards. But we've done it repeatedly for over a year now, with no results. It seems pointless to continue. Your comfort level is certainly greater by cocooning yourself just within the confines of your fellow believers. I'm sure the church would prefer that - they don't like for members to be exposed to beliefs that challenge the validity of the ones they drill into you. To your credit, you've allowed yourself to see and read what the rest of the world thinks about mormonism generally and their stance on gay marriage specifically, and as a result you're better for it. Knowledge and understanding will always trump fear and ignorance. There's a reason that your church doesn't actively communicate their justifications regarding their actions on prop 8 - why they plot in secret - and why they go so far as to lie about it. It's because their actions cannot stand up to the light of day. THEY know they're wrong - you don't. And that's just how they want to keep it. So they'll lie to you just as quickly as they lie to the rest of us - these holy men anointed by god that you follow without question. So you've seen the 'other side' - and now you're choosing to turn away from it and retreat to the safety of the tribe. But a seed has been planted nonetheless. You've tasted the forbidden fruit and you're better for it.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>And I think you guys will finally get your way. I find nothing worthwhile from your hateful posts. WE is no longer interesting, fun, or enlightening.<< I haven't told you to stop posting. And while I get that people are fired up and angry with Mormons and that's hard for you, you have to understand where it comes from. No matter how politely it was stated, no matter if it was delivered by elderly white men in suits, and no matter how it was couched in phrases like "traditional marriage," what your church did last year was far more hateful than anything that's been said on this thread.
Originally Posted By dshyates josh, I like you and think you have a good heart. But I can't help but think you have more in common with religious zealots that fly plane into buildings than with real thinking people.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I may share a dedication to a faith with the Terrorists but that's about it.
