Originally Posted By ecdc Actually, I find it very telling whenever Josh declares his faith or bears testimony. Notice what he said: We'll never convince him that Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, the Book of Mormon isn't true, etc. Yet no one has ever tried to do that. I can say that I don't give a rip what Josh believes, and I suspect no one else does either, so long as he keeps his nose out of their personal relationships. But Josh's statement is revealing because it exposes the LDS psyche. For Josh to say that his leaders are wrong about gay marriage is tantamount to saying he doesn't believe in Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. Such is the house of cards of Mormonism. If one thing isn't true, then none of it is. That's why you have such declarations of certitude. And it's an important thing to understand, because it's why such a small religion wields so much power.
Originally Posted By Mr X Wow. That's some seriously deep "psychology of religion" analysis you did right there! I, too, am often baffled when Josh, seemingly out of the blue, goes on a rant such as that (speaking to no one in particular, about something that was never said). I wonder if that would apply to other religions (like Islam, for example), and be used to justify some of the more extremist actions some of them engage in.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF Wow...so much back and forth since last night. I did want to respond to some points, but I was using my iPod Touch and writing thoughtful, comprehensive posts on that thing takes too long. >>Do you guys feel that same way about half of california? The ones who actually voted on the prop 8 issue? Or just me, some guy on a message board?<< Look, I don't know how many more times I can say this, but I'll do it again: I couldn't really care less that you're a Mormon. I personally think it's great that you have something that brings so much into your life -- as I do for anyone of faith -- but when you start to use that to affect the civil rights of others and get into my business, that's where I have to stand up and protest. I have no love lost for those voters in CA, and I do believe the majority of them were influenced by their respective churches. As far as I can remember, the only dissenting voices that came around here during the election were you and ElderP. He doesn't come here anymore (good riddance), so YOU alone are the one who has chosen to come to WE and get in the middle of these discussions. You seem to be really affronted that you receive the reaction that you do. Maybe you see it as your duty to your faith to endure it. If any Baptists, Catholics, or other people of faith came here spouting the same things, believe me: I'd be having the same discussions with them. With the news from the Prop. 8 trial I posted yesterday, you've found yourself backed into an indefensible corner. You know, I know it, everyone else here knows it. Why not admit it? Also, I've noticed something interesting about a lot of these back-and-forths with you. I know I am in the running for the King of Snark around here -- and I'm very good at it, I think -- but when I do put that aside and try to discuss things with you thoughtfully, as I am right now, you usually have no response. I would have thought at least you'd have SOMEthing to say about what I posted yesterday morning regarding the whole sexuality issue.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***With the news from the Prop. 8 trial I posted yesterday, you've found yourself backed into an indefensible corner. You know, I know it, everyone else here knows it. Why not admit it?*** Note please that he never actually addressed it AT ALL. What do you have to say about it, Josh? ANYTHING? Rebuttal? Refutal? Bad source? Pack of lies? <---waits patiently
Originally Posted By utahjosh <I, too, am often baffled when Josh, seemingly out of the blue, goes on a rant such as that (speaking to no one in particular, about something that was never said).> I was pretty clear as to why I posted my testimony. It was to remind y'all that my viewpoint, my entire life, if based on something you find silly and wrong. We'll never reach an agreement on many things...so why keep arguing the same points over and over and over?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << It was to remind y'all that my viewpoint, my entire life, if based on something you find silly and wrong. >> To some extent, everyone's life has a certain amount of silliness and wrongness to it. No one faults you or argues with you about that. Not everyone tries to force that silliness and wrongness on the rest of society. That's the difference. Why don't you get this?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I was pretty clear as to why I posted my testimony.*** Your "testimony"? Dude, you're not speaking to a group of Mormons here. Try English next time.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***so why keep arguing the same points over and over and over?*** So then why on Earth do you continue to post the same stuff over and over and over, when no-one on here really gives a rat about it and many actually, and for good reason, truly resent it?
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >>Thu 1/21/2010 9:40p I, on the other hand, hope to cross paths with BDSF someday You rule!<< Awww, you're makin' me blush! I'm just little ol' me...
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Your "testimony"? Dude, you're not speaking to a group of Mormons here. Try English next time.> Ummm...ecdc called my post a "testimony" before I did. Go attack him.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <So then why on Earth do you continue to post the same stuff over and over and over, when no-one on here really gives a rat about it ??> I could say the same exact thing about half the people on here that disagree with me. Sounds like that only messages that you agree with are welcome here.
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Originally Posted By Dabob2 Here's what struck me: Josh, post #115: "It makes it pretty tough to come together on a topic. Especially when others are fixed in what they believe to be fact." Well, yes - when people are absolutely fixed and cannot open their minds to consider they might be wrong - that's a problem. Josh, post #111: "YOU WILL NEVER convince me that God doesn't live, that Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, or that the Book of Mormon isn't what it claims to be. NEVER. EVER. " Do you not see the disconnect here, Josh? And let's not pretend that it's an equal stubbornness either. I've changed my position on any number of things over time, and I've been convinced by people here sometimes to change my view. But you've admitted that if your church tells you that something is "true," you will believe it to be true, period. You even said (and correct me if I'm wrong) that if the church went back to the old ways and said the the holy spirit spoke through the prophet and elders and concluded that black people couldn't be members again, that you would accept that as divinely inspired. It is indeed a problem when people are "fixed in what they believe to be fact" (as you put it, very well) and will cling to that beyond logic or reason. And I'm not talking about the basic tenets of your faith; I'm talking about all the pronouncements that come from the church on present-day matters that you must, as a good Mormon, believe to be "facts."
Originally Posted By utahjosh Not a disconnect. When did I say I wasn't set in my beliefs? I totally am. Others have a harder time admitting it.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 And, as several people have said, I have no problem with you believing what you will. It doesn't really affect me. At least it usually doesn't. But when it DOES affect me - when you work against my equal rights as an American citizen in this non-theocracy we live in - then you can't expect me to just roll over and say it's fine. It's not fine.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Not a disconnect. When did I say I wasn't set in my beliefs? I totally am. Others have a harder time admitting it.> It's a disconnect because I'm not talking about your beliefs. I'm talking about the pronouncements from the church - even including the theoretical pronouncement that blacks could no longer be members. If you don't question something like that, you're not a believer, you're an automaton. Let's save those for DL. And others DO change their beliefs based on logic and persuasion. I've seen it right here on WE. I've changed my mind, and I've changed some other people's minds on subject A or subject B. But that's not even possible for you if the church has given its position on the given topic, is it? Is it?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>YOU WILL NEVER convince me that God doesn't live, that Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, or that the Book of Mormon isn't what it claims to be. NEVER. EVER. God himself is the only one who could change my mind about that.<< >>I don't mean to come here and preach.<< Then WHY ... ARE ... YOU ... HERE???
Originally Posted By mele Cos he likes feeling ganged up on. It somehow makes him feel stronger is his faith.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Serious question, Josh. If the church has stated its position on a given subject--and I'm not talking theology here, I'm talking about a secular social issue--IS is possible for you to change your mind about it? If not, that's pretty much the definition of holding fast to a fixed position no matter what.
