Originally Posted By vbdad55 Do you know? I wonder if I am now at the point if I even cared if the parks closed altogether. They haven't been what they were for so long, and that is such a disappointment ---- as long as you understand 10 million + people a year do not feel that way however. The parks are a very important part of many people's lives
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Third, see the above. The Four Seasons at WDW simply is not something very pressing on his radar. ---------------- I'm sorry but as much as I agree with the firt two assessments- I disagree here. There is a brand to protect here as well and each location adds or detracts to that brand. I myself believe the Four Seasons at WDW might have been DOA...and some of this meeting resurrected that albeit 2014- at least. Why the long delay - this could be ready much much sooner. Not saying there wasn;t more to the meeting than this- but something smells wrong with the hotel delivery date.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 you really think people would care about this ... really, I need to start my Mental Health and the Disney Fan Community thread STAT), ------ I believe- although it can easily said this is displaced- there is more emotion attached there. Bad priorities yes...but let's face it, there likely are areas where more people % wise attend Disney than vote- especially in non presidential elections. Sad-- agreed. Also I think many of us have given up on Washington - pick your party - to do the right thing yet we still EXPECT it from Disney. Again, wacky priorities yes - but I believe true Look at my state - about to have 2 governors in jail- and the really bad people are still stealing from us every day.... I would trust Lassetter or Jobs far more than any elected politician in Illinois- and based on the last 50 years here no one should question why.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I would trust Lassetter or Jobs far more than any elected politician in Illinois- and based on the last 50 years here no one should question why.>> You obviously don't have friends who've worked at Pixar since Point Richmond days. If you did, you'd take this statement back in a heartbeat.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>Do you know? I wonder if I am now at the point if I even cared if the parks closed altogether. They haven't been what they were for so long, and that is such a disappointment.<<< I'm going to hop over Spirits rant here because frankly, it is just a rerun of what has already been said. They were there, they were not, if they were how did they manage to disguise themselves to the point of no one noticing. Well, I don't know and I don't care. This discussion has rightfully turned into a banter of what if's. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing has to be proven to express your opinion, even if just for the fun of it. Anyway, Dave perhaps you have outgrown Disney or at least the stateside versions. It does happen. When it does, like yourself, it is important to be true to yourself and find another interest. But if an outsider were to listen to the carrying on's about how the quality has declined you guys create the image that the paint is pealing off everything, all metal objects are rusted and it has just plain gone to hell in a hand basket. I will agree that the number of extras, like street entertainment, has been cut back but I disagree that the non-working animatronics, if they exist, will be noticed by anyone other than those of us that have been there many times. Personally I have seen some broken, once, but I have never seen an individual AA broken in successive trips. Yeti, OK, but that is a much bigger problem then just adding fluid and tightening a screw. Timing is everything sometimes. That stuff is mechanical and will on occasion breakdown. Remember that WDW has been operating everyday for almost 40 years. Ever had a car last that long? What I see is people that cannot except that somethings cannot be completely controlled. Crap happens! If I were the Disney Corp. I would want to get rid of the place as well. Throw millions of dollars at something and receive nothing but criticism. That could be why they aren't even targeting the continuous Guests anymore...we expect too much. Let's aim for the one timer who wouldn't know that the Yeti is supposed to move. No complaints, no pressure, no problems. It must be a colossal pain in the butt to operate the place. Everyone wanting something for nothing, sue if you do something stupid on Disney property. After all, they have deep pockets. In fact, I think I would be inclined to just hand over the keys in exchange for Disney Brand agreements and a monthly percentage of the take. All income, no expense. What a great idea. Anyone have Bob's number...we need to talk!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 So, what went on at this super secret MAGICal bonding session? I'm sure team-building exercises as well as singing Disney showtunes ... But seriously, when I look at the timing and news cycles, I'm left with the conclusion (this would be educated OPINION) that Disney had some high-level negotiations with the Prince about buying all or part of Disney P&R. Just so I'm clear because some people don't understand what this means (it doesn't mean buying 100% of EPCOT ... or 24% of WDW or some such nonsense), I'll try and be simple. Look online for a list of Disney P&R holdings globally. If someone were to buy part or all of the holdings, then it would be inclusive. Bob isn't going to be dumping DAK, DSP or DCA in their entirety to a Saudi royal or any such ridiculousness. I've read plenty and see people thinking it would only be WDW or WDW and DL etc. I'm fairly certain things did not go well for Disney in its pursuit because we've heard nothing and the way the timing of this was structured, at the start of a week that ends in a four-day weekend for many Americans, it was done so that any announcement would come at a very slow news time. And at a time when the markets would be closed. If I was going to make an announcement like this, then it would have come late Friday afternoon. With regard to Prince (can we just call him Ali here?) bin Talal, it is worth noting The Weatherman was NOT involved in the original Euro Disney deal that was fashioned by Sandy Litvak under Michael Eisner and Frank Wells' direction as Iger wasn't a part of the company yet. At that time, the Prince became an apprehensive investor in that project only after Michael flatly rejected the idea of a total buyout. The Disney P&R division, contrary to what many WDW-centric fans would have you believe, is dwarfed in its value to TWDC by its cable holdings. While some want to price them closer to $20 billion rather than $10 billion, I have been told a valuation of $12-13 billion (from a Wall Street type) is a best case scenario if TWDC is looking to drop the unit entirely from its portfolio. It's entirely possible that Iger overplayed his hand, not having the previous experience. That valuation reflects substantial financial commitments domestically and abroad as we're seeing in DCA and in Asia as well as the DCL fleet's doubling in ships. Moreover, it is indicative of Wall Street's growing concern relating to the continued operation of the domestic parks in the continued business model of large scale discounting that Disney continues to blame on the weak USA economy. I don't know whether this will make fans happy or unhappy, but no news is not good news (or bad news for that matter). As I stated in the OP, there doesn't seem to be a market/buyer for the product right now ... unless, all of a sudden, things change. It does mean Disney's P&R Division IS on the block. They want to sell, and this has to concern all fans. Again, because if you are looking to sell something, you're only going to minimally invest in it. And again, this idea it would be a bad thing is lunacy. I know ... I've been to the other side (no, not the Dark Side, I live there) of the world and I was absolutely amazed by the level of quality the OLC brings to its parks (and is forced to by Disney's contracts, which would be very similar in any sale here). You simply can't imagine the difference in quality between a WDW park and a TDR park until you've actually spent time in Tokyo.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<But if an outsider were to listen to the carrying on's about how the quality has declined you guys create the image that the paint is pealing off everything, all metal objects are rusted and it has just plain gone to hell in a hand basket. I will agree that the number of extras, like street entertainment, has been cut back but I disagree that the non-working animatronics, if they exist, will be noticed by anyone other than those of us that have been there many times.>> Are you serious? Or just joking? Or you believe people are too dumb to notice when things are broken, poorly maintained, dirty etc? I have some other points I'd like to address before getting back to the pixie dust and pyro, but I couldn't let something like this just sit. <<Personally I have seen some broken, once, but I have never seen an individual AA broken in successive trips. Yeti, OK, but that is a much bigger problem then just adding fluid and tightening a screw. Timing is everything sometimes. That stuff is mechanical and will on occasion breakdown. Remember that WDW has been operating everyday for almost 40 years. Ever had a car last that long?>> There are aircraft flying today that are 40 years old ... for major US airlines. You know why? because they are maintained. And the yeti is about 5 1/2 years old and hasn't worked it years. This is just absurd apologizing for poor corporate decisions. You know something, I went to TDR and rode attractions that have been there since 1983 and looked like they opened yesterday. Why? Because their guests expect it and don't make excuses for getting less for their yen and because management demands it. <<What I see is people that cannot except that somethings cannot be completely controlled. Crap happens! If I were the Disney Corp. I would want to get rid of the place as well. Throw millions of dollars at something and receive nothing but criticism. That could be why they aren't even targeting the continuous Guests anymore...we expect too much. Let's aim for the one timer who wouldn't know that the Yeti is supposed to move. No complaints, no pressure, no problems.>> Again, are you serious? They receive nothing but criticism? REALLY?!? I'd argue if they were ANY other company they would have been savaged massively a decade ago in FLA. And marketing a one and done deal is not a long term way to stay in business. <<It must be a colossal pain in the butt to operate the place. Everyone wanting something for nothing, sue if you do something stupid on Disney property. After all, they have deep pockets. In fact, I think I would be inclined to just hand over the keys in exchange for Disney Brand agreements and a monthly percentage of the take. All income, no expense. What a great idea. Anyone have Bob's number...we need to talk!>> People want something for nothing? Really? When last I looked it didn't cost nothing to visit WDW. A week for a family of four can easily set them back between $2,000 (absolutely scrapping) to many multiples. Oh and yes, I do have Bob's number, but I believe he may have changed it due to some outraged ABC Daytime fans calling ...
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>>Like it or not, this is precisely why we got stuck with the crappy Winnie the Pooh C-Tickets in MK and DL, and not the fabulous E-Ticket in Tokyo. Americans have been quietly accepting the Walmarting of their society, and the multinational conglomerates like Disney are fully well aware of that fact. This is why they're considering the sell off of the parks. Burbank knows in the end, the public will keep coming back, again and again, no matter which company actually holds them.<<<< See, I don't even know if people realize that those rides were watered down or substandard. WE do, because we follow Disney, but to them, it's just a dark ride. ...and a dark ride that's looking pretty good these days, I'd have to add. I've never had a problem with it. However, that's a different issue than "Wal-Marting"... That's when something that should be up to par isn't, as compared to how it is several years ago. Like merchandise. Or upkeep. Or horticulture. I mean, there has to be C/D tickets somewhere.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>I'm fairly certain things did not go well for Disney in its pursuit because we've heard nothing and the way the timing of this was structured, at the start of a week that ends in a four-day weekend for many Americans, it was done so that any announcement would come at a very slow news time. And at a time when the markets would be closed.<<<< So... all this... for...? Seemingly nothing, yet? Of course, all this takes time, but when do we start getting headway on if this is progressing or not? Will we ever? What I'm essentially driving at Spirit, is if this will ever be made public... Until we wake up one day and it's the headline. Granted, I don't expect them to give us details, that would be poor business, but some information could come in the guise of the news, a statements... anything?
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>> It does mean Disney's P&R Division IS on the block. They want to sell, and this has to concern all fans. Again, because if you are looking to sell something, you're only going to minimally invest in it.<<<< And of course, it would mean a upsurge in maint so the place looks good... good enough to sell. ...How long have there been tarps up on MSUSA? ...How long have there been walls around the MK? Like you said, some things fit.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<However, that's a different issue than "Wal-Marting">> Absolutely no difference at all! When one Disney park gets the fabulous Imagineering-on-steroids E-Ticket attraction, but the other parks get the watered-down neon painted plywood C-Ticket, that is the very definition of Walmarting. Customers shop at Walmart for cheaply produced products at bargain basement prices. You don't go to Walmart expecting Tiffany's or Sak's level of merchandise. But this is precisely the way Disney has been treating the domestic parks, compared to the way OLC manages TDR.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I believe the possibility of ANYTHING in corporate America can happen having been a part of a large management team for 34 years..I have seen an awful lot over that time span.... However I just hope they realize the swift and massive negativity this concept would be handed. If they don't believe for a minute that a certain % of their base is emotional based and in many cases ( not to offend anyone or make light of any other groups contributions)- Boomer based- emotionally and stock ownership wise.. they are sadly mistaken.>> Before I sign off for at least a few hours (gonna go play 'Let's Blow Stuff Up' with my plush and vinylmations!), I wanted to acknowledge that you nailed a key point here. Baby boomers. You're all old and you're going to die! (wait, too harsh? thought so ... so ...) How about ... Baby Boomers, a significant but graying population, without a next generation that has anywhere near the emotional attachment and the spending clout they do. Generations X (that's mine), Y and the Millennials will all have a lower (I believe much lower unless they leave for China) standard of living. Little if any stability and no real BRAND loyalty. Things don't look good because they aren't good (at least here in the US and they haven't been for a very long time ... example, I used to be invited to an average of seven Fourth of July BBQs, I will not tell you the number this year ... and, no, they weren't all from Disney Execs either!) ... and TWDC is quite mindful of how this will hit the P&R Division. Ultimately, for all the talk about them not wanting to me in the P&R business, it really comes down to money and spending power. ... To put this in perspective, you mentioned in response to my UK Duffy Bear's post about Disney (which almost made me cry ... way to go, Dave ... WAY. TO. GO!) that 10-million plus visitors feel differently than he does. Well, unless my Gen X mind has started to leave me (and I'm sure someone will correct me if that is so), most industry insiders put the number of Americans who visit WDW in any given year at around three percent of our total population. Just three percent at The Walmarted World of Disney. But, hey, buddy .... things are at least looking up in the VBDAD household. When you croak, the daughters will still have how many years of free DVC stays? That's the power of the Baby Boomer generation! ;-)
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>>When one Disney park gets the fabulous Imagineering-on-steroids E-Ticket attraction, but the other parks get the watered-down neon painted plywood C-Ticket, that is the very definition of Walmarting. Customers shop at Walmart for cheaply produced products at bargain basement prices. You don't go to Walmart expecting Tiffany's or Sak's level of merchandise. But this is precisely the way Disney has been treating the domestic parks, compared to the way OLC manages TDR.<<< Exactly right, my point was akin to yours, but not as well formed. LOL. What I was trying to say, that YES, in concept that IS walmarting, but not EVERYTHING can be the massive E Tic. That IN NO WAY MEANS that we shouldn't strive for the best in our parks, but there is the texture and design of having smaller, auxiliary rides and atmosphere that supports the bigger attractions. Pooh, IMO, is one of them. So, in the end, the point I was attempting to make, but failed at, was more of a design choice, versus a political/quality one. Sorry, Skinner! LOL
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<So... all this... for...? Seemingly nothing, yet? Of course, all this takes time, but when do we start getting headway on if this is progressing or not? Will we ever? >> That depends ... but we should have already heard about this. No matter how Disney spun this week's strange happenings in O-Town, something should have been written. And I'm not saying on websites like this or blogs by Kevin Yee, John Frost etc ... No, I'm saying MANY in real media were clearly either asleep at the wheel or dissuaded from reporting this. Jason Garcia. Brady McDonald. Brooks Barnes. and a host of others should have been on this well before it appeared on discussion boards. Garcia especially gets a shot because he wrote a story on the troubled Four Seasons project and Golden Oak when all of this was going on and Iger, Staggs, the BoD, the Prince ... everyone but people like Al Weiss and Meg Crofton was in town. Even if he can't get a comment and write a traditional business story, he still could have done a news brief and or blogged about it himself. Even if all they did was pick out the next three attractions to get NEXT GEN queues (I am facetious here. I know you know that ... but others), he could have written it. It's a story even if no one will talk to him on the record. He struck out badly as did the others. As for the bloggers ... well, it's not a job for them and you can't expect them to know everything that's going on, especially when it is being hidden so well. <<What I'm essentially driving at Spirit, is if this will ever be made public... Until we wake up one day and it's the headline. Granted, I don't expect them to give us details, that would be poor business, but some information could come in the guise of the news, a statements... anything? >> I am not really sure. I think that was the intention. Now ... don't know. I would think some of the reporters that follow Disney have certainly read about it online ... although, it is holiday time and many of these newsrooms are shells of what they were 3-4 years ago. Maybe they haven't even realized it yet.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<However, that's a different issue than "Wal-Marting">> <<Absolutely no difference at all! When one Disney park gets the fabulous Imagineering-on-steroids E-Ticket attraction, but the other parks get the watered-down neon painted plywood C-Ticket, that is the very definition of Walmarting. Customers shop at Walmart for cheaply produced products at bargain basement prices. You don't go to Walmart expecting Tiffany's or Sak's level of merchandise. But this is precisely the way Disney has been treating the domestic parks, compared to the way OLC manages TDR.>> Exactly. Disney could do E-Ticket caliber Mermaid and Snow White rides in their Fantasyland project, yet they are not. ... Not even close. Everything doesn't have to be an E-Ticket, but when you're at 19 years and counting, something is VERY, VERY wrong. People now expect Walmart and that is what Disney gives them ... at least in Florida. Now ... off for some holiday fun for a bit! I'll see you all a little later ...
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost When one Disney park gets the fabulous Imagineering-on-steroids E-Ticket attraction, but the other parks get the watered-down neon painted plywood C-Ticket, that is the very definition of Walmarting. Customers shop at Walmart for cheaply produced products at bargain basement prices. I can accept that, but that leads to a question. What is the great emotional innerd twist when it comes to Mr. Toad? Talk about your neon painted plywood. Can you really tell me that Toad was a higher quality attraction then Pooh? (which I also hate, btw). How about the plywood overlay that happens to HM in DL. I thought that was as cheap and cheesy as possible, yet so many people want that cheap crap in WDW. And it's not the one timer that is calling for it, it's the highly refined tastes of the all knowing regulars. Make up your minds. High quality or cardboard?
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>>Jason Garcia. Brady McDonald. Brooks Barnes. and a host of others should have been on this well before it appeared on discussion boards. Garcia especially gets a shot because he wrote a story on the troubled Four Seasons project and Golden Oak when all of this was going on and Iger, Staggs, the BoD, the Prince ... everyone but people like Al Weiss and Meg Crofton was in town. <<<< OK, you hit on EXACTLY what I hoped you would. In what capacity do you think that Garcia and Co. is being shielded from getting news on this? It's not exactly something I would think Disney wants covered in detail. Which fits nicely into the idea of the "no photo" theory.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>What is the great emotional innerd twist when it comes to Mr. Toad? Talk about your neon painted plywood. Can you really tell me that Toad was a higher quality attraction then Pooh? (which I also hate, btw). How about the plywood overlay that happens to HM in DL. I thought that was as cheap and cheesy as possible, yet so many people want that cheap crap in WDW. And it's not the one timer that is calling for it, it's the highly refined tastes of the all knowing regulars. Make up your minds. High quality or cardboard<<< Read what I posted in Post 392. Auxiliary attractions. I see it as a design choice. What are we going to have a E Ticket for the Swiss Family House? LOL.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>>Everything doesn't have to be an E-Ticket, but when you're at 19 years and counting, something is VERY, VERY wrong.<<< EXACTLY. That's a main point, here.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> Garcia especially gets a shot because he wrote a story on the troubled Four Seasons project and Golden Oak when all of this was going on and Iger, Staggs, the BoD, the Prince ... everyone but people like Al Weiss and Meg Crofton was in town. << Garcia has a puff piece about DAK Lodge that went up this afternoon. <a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-cfb-cover-animal-kingdom-0704-20110703,0,3308901.story" target="_blank">http://www.orlandosentinel.com...01.story</a> But no word on the Magical Meeting of Big Shots or the For Sale sign in front of Cinderella Castle.
