Originally Posted By dagobert >>>I think it is. The people paying $700 per night for the Grand Floridian or Poly have money to spend. They aren't terribly interested in plush. I think it serves a market that is definitely there. I am not in that class, but the only place I have spent substantial money over that past 10 years is the Art of Disney Store. After almost 25 years of visits, I don't need any more cheap tourist trinkets. If I buy something at Disney, I want unique and I want quality. I don't buy every visit, but when I do I spend some money.<<< You made a good point. Considering all the deluxe resorts at WDW, there must be a market for that. When we are on vacation, we also like to spend money, but not on expensive hotel rooms. I really like the concept of The Edison and I would definitely go there, because of the dress code and the classy environment. I hope the waitresses will be dressed like the ones in LA ;-)
Originally Posted By leemac <<I really like the concept of The Edison and I would definitely go there, because of the dress code and the classy environment. >> It will be interesting to see if they can maintain the high end dining tenants that they have attracted to date. All of these concept restaurants are pricey and don't particularly fit into the key demographics for WDW. WDW was very lucky to get the West Side off the ground when it did. I don't think you could find any restauranteur to take space as large as HOB, Pucks or Bongos in this climate now.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Considering all the deluxe resorts at WDW, there must be a market for that. >> You'd be surprised at the actual demographic for the deluxe hotels - it isn't skewing to the high earners at all. They also don't spend considerably more coin that folks in the moderates. There isn't much high end dining in the WDW hotels because there isn't the demand. Stuff like V&A and California Grill do well but they are minuscule in the scheme of things.
Originally Posted By magic0214 All the restaurants that have been announced and are slowly opening seem so similar to me. Similar in the fact that they are all billed as "prestigious" or "high-end". With all of these places seemingly having huge price tags on food items (that Boathouse menu is ridiculous), you are all catering to the same group of people. I want more variety in the sense of price groups. Yes, having Edison and Morimotos is very neat, but I also want some cool concepts that are lower prices. I adored Pollo Campero, I still enjoy Earl of Sandwich...why not more of that?!
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "You'd be surprised at the actual demographic for the deluxe hotels - it isn't skewing to the high earners at all. They also don't spend considerably more coin that folks in the moderates. There isn't much high end dining in the WDW hotels because there isn't the demand. Stuff like V&A and California Grill do well but they are minuscule in the scheme of things." That sounds a lot like what I recently experienced in Vegas. A lot of pretentious looking venues and shopping malls filled with run of the mill fast food restaurants and standard retail chains. Sure, the super deluxe high end stuff is there, but the Vegas customer demographic is definitely not shopping and dining on Rodeo Drive every weekend. "I adored Pollo Campero, I still enjoy Earl of Sandwich...why not more of that?!" Probably because in Orlando there are like 10,000 options for slightly above average franchises. Maybe having a higher end selection of establishments might be a differentiator for Disney in that market? I always envisioned that corner of WDW as a draw for locals and conventioneers as much as for Disney vacationers.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>You'd be surprised at the actual demographic for the deluxe hotels - it isn't skewing to the high earners at all.<< That's always been my general impression. The people who stay at the Deluxes aren't the types who typically spend $300+/night on a hotel room, but rather the ones who are taking a once-in-a-lifetime trip that they've saved for years to take. It's great to have signature options like V&A's to give them credibility, but with a ridiculously low capacity (yet not so small that the hundreds of thousands of guests on property every day really struggle to get reservations) to keep it in check As far as I can tell, this works in Disney's favor, since their hotels don't live up to those pricepoints in the real world, so it's to their benefit to have guests who aren't used to those kinds of hotels. If someone was expecting true 4-star service at the Grand Floridian or Polynesian, I suspect they would be sorely disappointed. Disney's hotels can be a lot of fun, but it's tough to classify them as truly high-end experiences >>All the restaurants that have been announced and are slowly opening seem so similar to me. Similar in the fact that they are all billed as "prestigious" or "high-end".<< I agree. Although there's a variety of cuisines offered, it seems like nearly everything is in the same level of dining. Heck, for the longest time I thought The Boathouse and the Hanger (which is now vaguely themed to an obscure Indiana Jones character?!?) were the same restaurant. It just doesn't seem like there's any real diversity to their lineup I hope that this new concept succeeds for DTD, but I honestly can't see it lasting too long. None of the restaurants appeal enough to me to draw me over there, and certainly not at those prices. Maybe it will be better for locals, international tourists, and conventioners, but I suspect most of the average guests will continue to bypass it
Originally Posted By leemac <<All the restaurants that have been announced and are slowly opening seem so similar to me. Similar in the fact that they are all billed as "prestigious" or "high-end". With all of these places seemingly having huge price tags on food items (that Boathouse menu is ridiculous), you are all catering to the same group of people. >> The cost to operate as a third party vendor at WDW is so expensive that you need to be upscale to make money. I can understand people being unhappy about the current mix. The challenge for all of these places will be getting the necessary footfall - particularly when free DDP is active. They won't be able to compete. Pleasure Island succeeded because you have one operator (Levy) running multiple locations. WDW have been trying to get Patina Group into DTD for years and failed. They finally took over the Italy pavilion but haven't made any further inroads. Patina have been very successful at DTD Anaheim with Catal, Uva, Naples, Tortilla Jo's and Taqueria. High end dining is a very tough nut to crack unless you are the likes of Puck, Patina, Levy, Union Square etc. Fads come and go so you have to find that secret sauce to make it stick. STK doesn't seem particularly different to any of the big chains like Morton's and Ruth Chris'. Those places work well in major cities where they get a lot of expense account traffic. It is a different story in the swamp. I can't see The Edison working at all - it is very high concept and expensive in LA. Tough to sell lots of alcohol to vacationers. That is exactly why PI folded.
Originally Posted By leemac And I should add that even Puck rejected WDW. Puck is a licensed concept at WDW to Levy.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>The cost to operate as a third party vendor at WDW is so expensive that you need to be upscale to make money.<< How does Earl of Sandwich survive? It's been around for years, and is quite reasonably priced. It's always busy (which I'm sure helps them stay in business), but has a very different vibe from the rest of DTD's offerings. It seems like if they were to offer more things on that same "fast casual" level, it would bring people to DTD to at least test the waters. As it is, I feel like they're scaring people away by not having any "entry level" options in case you don't want to spend $50 per person >>I can't see The Edison working at all - it is very high concept and expensive in LA.<< I would assume that the pricing might be adjusted to reflect the difference in costs (labor, supplies, etc), but it will still skew toward the expensive side. Depending how it turns out, I could see it turning into an AP hangout, similar to the Adventurer's Club. From what I've seen, it has a similar niche "it's cool because not many people know it's here" atmosphere to it, so I could see it being really popular with that crowd. Then again, if it's overpriced it's going to be a really tough sell for repeat business Although I've never been to the Edison in LA, I've been to several events in DC that have a very similar setup. Given the popularity of them here (and the huge base of singles who like to go out to bars and clubs) I'm surprised that a similar concept hasn't opened yet
Originally Posted By leemac <<How does Earl of Sandwich survive? It's been around for years, and is quite reasonably priced. It's always busy (which I'm sure helps them stay in business), but has a very different vibe from the rest of DTD's offerings.>> Deep pockets for one. Earl is owned by Robert Earl who founded Planet Hollywood and All Star Cafe. He still controls the remaining PH (I think they are down to just 7 now) and licenses the brand to Caesars for the casino. Earl has a hybrid model - they own and operate some properties and franchise the rest. But it is all high volume. There aren't many fast casual joints in DTD - crazy considering that is the fastest growing segment - Panera Bread, Chipotle etc.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Although I've never been to the Edison in LA, I've been to several events in DC that have a very similar setup. Given the popularity of them here (and the huge base of singles who like to go out to bars and clubs) I'm surprised that a similar concept hasn't opened yet>> The biggest problem with this concept is that it shouldn't be a concept in the first place. The speakeasy movement has been so successful because it has that small intimate pop-up vibe. These mega-bar concepts just don't work much any more - very difficult to make them succeed in the long term.
Originally Posted By dagobert May I ask, why is it so expensive to operate a restaurant at DTD/DS? Is the rent so high? Does EoS even make money, or is it just there to have a presence and other restaurants earn the difference to stay open at DTD?
Originally Posted By leemac <<May I ask, why is it so expensive to operate a restaurant at DTD/DS? Is the rent so high? >> Rent and the service charge - crazy money considering the locations. Epcot participants are on revenue sharing agreements which are very expensive indeed. That is why there has been some turnover in recent years.
Originally Posted By dagobert Thanks for the answer. I always assumed that Disney owned and opereated all restaurants inside the parks until I read about Yak and Yeti and Tutto Italia. Are any of the DTD restaurants owned and operated by Disney?
Originally Posted By FerretAfros ^^If I'm not mistaken, the only Disney restaurants in DTD are the theme park food trucks and the eateries inside DisneyQuest (if there are any left at this point). Prior to all the construction, they operated Cap'n Jack's seafood restaurant by the marina, but that was it. Kind of interesting, when you consider how heavily the retail skewed toward Disney-operated I think that there were more Disney establishments many years ago, prior to the Downtown Disney/Pleasure Island (re)branding. The original location of Chef Mickey's (character dining now in the Contemporary concourse) was in the old Lake Buena Vista shopping center, as well as a few others I think
Originally Posted By dagobert Thanks for the answer Ferret. At DLP there is also an outside company that operates many restaurants in Disney Village. It seems the same goes for DTD Anaheim. So Disney is not really interested in restaurants outside of the parks.
Originally Posted By dagobert I don't want to open a new topic, so I'm going to ask this here. Since Disney has this relationship with Starbucks now, do you know if they will add Starbucks to the cruise ships as well? I couln't find any infos, so I guess that's not happening.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I always assumed that Disney owned and opereated all restaurants inside the parks until I read about Yak and Yeti and Tutto Italia. Are any of the DTD restaurants owned and operated by Disney?>> Epcot's World Showcase has always been a mix of WDW Co. owned and operated restaurants and third party vendors. The most popular ones have always been outside vendors like Alfredos that was Epcot's highest grossing location for years. Japan, Paris and Mexico are all third parties. WDW Co. operates Germany, U.K. and Canada. Morocco is an outside vendor but I can't remember about China and Norway.
Originally Posted By leemac <<^^If I'm not mistaken, the only Disney restaurants in DTD are the theme park food trucks and the eateries inside DisneyQuest (if there are any left at this point). Prior to all the construction, they operated Cap'n Jack's seafood restaurant by the marina, but that was it. Kind of interesting, when you consider how heavily the retail skewed toward Disney-operated>> That was out of commercial reality more than anything - particularly most-Lehman when specialty retail was failing left, right and center. Cap'n Jacks was the only WDW Co. O&O in recent years. Years ago more of the old Village was O&O but the renovations in the mid-90s saw them all replaced by third parties.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Since Disney has this relationship with Starbucks now, do you know if they will add Starbucks to the cruise ships as well? I couln't find any infos, so I guess that's not happening.>> It wasn't part of the partnership. Soft drinks, coffee and tea are free on DCL - specialty coffees are extra. There just isn't any need for a branded-coffee product onboard.
