Originally Posted By mawnck >>Too many Disney fans have oversimplified the relationship as Roy=business, Walt=creative.<< Roy, of course, was instrumental in the overall look and feel of the early Silly Symphonies. 9_9
Originally Posted By Marlin Perkins <<Is there any evidence that Walt would've had problems with a full Disneyland?>> I believe there is. That is to say, he wouldn't want the park so utterly full that visitors are unable to have an enjoyable experience there. This is a quote from another website: "Part of Walt Disney's beliefs about Disneyland could perhaps be summerized as there being no such thing as an insignificant detail. Every corner of Disneyland shows this belief, from the lights and landscaping to the trashcans. Everything the public sees is made and fabricated with the highest quality, no matter what the cost." That is true, is it not? And really, who can see the quality or details when there is a mass of people clamoring for the same view? I don't want to keep posting about local AP's but I do see it as a problem. The people that use their AP's are doing nothing wrong. They have every right to use their pass. However, it is still a problem. Since I live out of town, I have to plan a trip to DL, make reservations, and spend as much time there each day of my trip. It's much easier for a local to drop-in for a few hours. They probably don't mind the crowds as much since they won't be staying for a full day. Heck, I could put up with the crowds for a few hours. But staying for 3 solid days or more...gets a little tiring.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "Is there any evidence that Walt would've had problems with a full Disneyland?" I recall hearing that he wasn't terribly pleased with the attendance on July 17, 1955, but a lot of that was because it was crowded beyond what they had planned for. I'm assuming that the crowds they are having on an almost daily occurence now are within their plans, but they still aren't pleasant.
Originally Posted By alexbook >>Disneyland wasn't meant to be some community center where you just "dropped in" every couple weeks to ride a ride or see the fireworks and then leave. That wasn't how the park or its infrastructure was designed in the 1950's, or the 1990's. << "Date Nite at Disneyland" ring any bells? <a href="http://vintagedisneylandtickets.blogspot.com/2008/01/date-nite-at-disneyland-1967.html" target="_blank">http://vintagedisneylandticket...967.html</a>
Originally Posted By TP2000 Much has been made of my quote that AP's are "doing it wrong" when it comes to using Disneyland. That's not a condemnation of the AP as an individual. Of course they have every right to visit the park at their slightest whim, as that is what they paid for. But Disneyland wasn't designed as a park to handle that visitation in 1955-2000, and the Resort wasn't designed to handle that visitation when it was re-imagined in 1995-2005. We're not using it the way it was designed to be used. If you were going to design Disneyland and it's infrastructure to play host to a Million Annual Passholders, there would be huge structural changes you would make to the current design; -Move the parade route east/west from Tomorrowland through Fantasyland and ending in Frontierland, entirely avoiding the Hub and Main Street to allow for park inflow-outflow of thousands of people staying for short periods of time. -Build a custom 15,000 seat amphitheater for Fantasmic back behind Critter Country with access to Frontierland to allow for migration of big crowds easily. -Expand the turnstile/entry facilities for both parks, nearly doubling their size and allowing for unimpeded park hopping. -Fire Steve Davison if he creates one more fireworks show that has to be seen from the Hub to follow the plotline. Challenge him to tell a pyrotechnic story that can be understood by the viewer when watching at Small World, Tomorrowland Terrace, Frontierland, and New Orleans Square -Build 20,000 spaces of additional parking instead of the measly 10,000 spaces Disney once had the gall to brag about in Mickey & Friends. And hope to God no one catches on to what the "carbon footprint" must be when 20,000 cars show up with just one or two AP's in each vehicle, instead of four or five tourists per vehicle. -Pass out flak jackets to the hostesses at Guest Relations if they dare try to pass out 3,000 or 4,000 World of Color Showpasses per day to tourists staying at the Disney Hotels, taking that many Showpasses out of the system available to AP's at the DCA distribution center. Okay, maybe that last one was unachievable. But the rest of those items are some basic changes that need to be made to the Resort's physical plant and logistical setup in order to work for the current demographic. In short, Disneyland and the Resort weren't designed for this type of demographic to use the property the way they are now using it. We are doing it wrong. So either the visitors need to change, or the park needs to change physically if these problems are going to be fixed.
Originally Posted By LuLu Wow, I like your ideas TP. It's too bad about the behemoth parking lot, I don't really "like" that one, but it's starting to seem necessary.
Originally Posted By SFH "Build a custom 15,000 seat amphitheater for Fantasmic back behind Critter Country with access to Frontierland to allow for migration of big crowds easily." I have long thought it would have been a good idea to move (and re-do) Fantasmic to the Toontown/Fantasyland Theatre area. A paddlewheel boat could be used in the finale, but parked as part of Toontown during the day. Likewise, we could get the return of Captain Hook's ship - to be parked in Fantasyland during the day when not needed for the show or show prep. The stage could be used during the day for other shows. By-redoing, I mean getting WDI involved and getting new animation instead of using only existing clips. Then we could get the westside of the park back at night. On the other hand, there is something to be said for Fantasmic rising out of the landscape that is walked and floated over by guests during the day.
Originally Posted By alexbook >>On the other hand, there is something to be said for Fantasmic rising out of the landscape that is walked and floated over by guests during the day.<< That's part of what makes the show so magical for me. I'd hate to lose it.
Originally Posted By believe >>>>>Disney and TDA execs have been very, very supportive of all three of those rail initiatives in recent years<<<<<< Of course they would, it's dropping the passenger in front of DL. They would never support it if the rail line ended at Union Station in Downtown LA.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo > This is a quote from another website: "Part of Walt Disney's beliefs about > Disneyland could perhaps be summerized as there being no such thing as an > insignificant detail. Every corner of Disneyland shows this belief, from the > lights and landscaping to the trashcans. Everything the public sees is made > and fabricated with the highest quality, no matter what the cost." That quote says absolutely nothing about how Walt felt about attendance. You're extrapolating what you want to believe. As far as an amphitheater foe Fanstasmic is concerned, they have one in WDW and it's a far inferior experience.
Originally Posted By Marlin Perkins >>That quote says absolutely nothing about how Walt felt about attendance. You're extrapolating what you want to believe.<< Kinda hard to know exactly what Walt thinks of the attendance right now, since he's dead. Did Walt want DL to be busy and successful? Yes. However, did Walt want ANYTHING to hinder a visitors enjoyment of DL? No. He went to great lengths to make DL a special place for visitors--unlike most of the amusement parks he visited around the world. Even to the point that he wished he had bought more land around DL because of the class of businesses that sprung up around it. He thought that the themes of DL should flow just like a movie from one scene to the next so that people would not have a jarring experience. We also know that Walt was very concerned with "people moving". So, I suppose it is up to interpretation at this point. My money is on the idea that if Walt saw how busy DL has become and how difficult it can be to traverse, he would want something to be done about it. When DL gets so busy that people are led down the back alley behind Main Street in order to exit at times (my family had to do this last winter), and kids get to view employee break rooms, trash cans, and soda machines...I'd say Walt would object.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Challenge him to tell a pyrotechnic story that can be understood by the viewer when watching at Small World, Tomorrowland Terrace, Frontierland, and New Orleans Square<< Wow, I really like that one! While I have enjoyed the spectacular fireworks shows of the last few years very much, it's time for something that doesn't require squishing into Main Street to get the whole show.
Originally Posted By danyoung >My money is on the idea that if Walt saw how busy DL has become and how difficult it can be to traverse, he would want something to be done about it.< I completely agree. With Walt it was all about the show, about the guest's experience, about getting away from reality and creating a perfect fantasy. There are many elements that can get in the way of that perfect fantasy, and a super-crowded DL is one of them. No one enjoys that experience - it takes a lot away from the magic that Walt wanted the park to be. So yeah, I can just about guarantee, based on everything I've read about Walt (and that's quite a lot of reading!), that he would not want the parks to be jam packed at any time. And he would take steps to make sure that there were limits on how crowded the place could get.
Originally Posted By onlyme Man, I don't know what's wrong with me 'n my wife. We have PAPs, live 200 miles north, go five or so times a year, know that times have changed and DL WILL be packed every time we go, get there at opening, go on plenty of rides, get 4 or 5 FPs for the evening, go back to our room and take a nap, eat plenty of food, walk around, sit and watch all of the stressed-out people,,,and have a great time,,, every time. Sure, it's packed. Sure, beginning at 6pm or so, you can't walk around certain areas due to F! and/or the firworks, but the DL experience is still fun for us. And, I absolutely HATE large crowds. Anyone remember (5+ years ago) when you could walk around the trail behind BTMRR at night and there would be NO ONE around. I loved that. Those days are long gone. I miss the uncrowded fall/winter/spring days. I can also understand why many people stay away because of the crowds. But, as long as I still find my favorite three hotels under $100/night, I'm happy.
Originally Posted By TP2000 believe <"They would never support it if it ended in LA".< But then why would Disneyland care if it ended up in LA? What would they "support" about that plan exactly? That's like saying General Dynamics doesn't "support" High Speed Rail having a terminus in Anaheim, because it's nowhere near their offices in San Diego. I doubt General Dynamics executive leadership has any opinion on that, and they won't have an opinion on it until the system finally gets going in San Diego sometime during the 2020's. If High Speed Rail wasn't planned to terminate in Anaheim, I doubt Disneyland management would care one way or another. And they wouldn't be expected to either.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones Disney World sure does care. They are offering up 50 acres for a station on Florida's proposed high speed rail line at no cost.
Originally Posted By TP2000 Yes, although the Florida rail project is about a decade behind California and has a great deal of work to do in gaining political traction in Tallahassee, Disney has also been more supportive lately of rail plans in central Florida.
Originally Posted By Bob Paris "Anyone remember (5+ years ago) when you could walk around the trail behind BTMRR at night and there would be NO ONE around" Yes. I remember meandering around there with the soft glow of the lights. It was lovely. "Those days are long gone" Why?
Originally Posted By onlyme Yes, it is/was the soft glow of the lights that made it so nice. The reason why I say that those days are long gone is because no matter what time of year I go, I'm surrounded by 200 other people as I walk along that path. So, the quietness that made it so special to me is long gone, not the path. But, it's still nice at night.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo > Did Walt want DL to be busy and successful? Yes. Exactly. > However, did Walt want ANYTHING to hinder a visitors enjoyment of DL? No. ANYTHING? That encompasses a lot. Long lines hinders one's enjoyment of Disneyland. And there were plenty of long lines during Walt's time. > He > went to great lengths to make DL a special place for visitors--unlike most of > the amusement parks he visited around the world. Even to the point that he > wished he had bought more land around DL because of the class of businesses > that sprung up around it. So? How is this relevant? > He thought that the themes of DL should flow just like a movie from one scene > to the next so that people would not have a jarring experience. So? How is this relevant? > We also know that Walt was very concerned with "people moving". So? How is this relevant? > So, I suppose it is up to interpretation at this point. My money is on the > idea that if Walt saw how busy DL has become and how difficult it can be to > traverse, he would want something to be done about it. When DL gets so busy > that people are led down the back alley behind Main Street in order to exit at > times (my family had to do this last winter), and kids get to view employee > break rooms, trash cans, and soda machines...I'd say Walt would object. Probably. But this is pretty rare. I won't argue this point. But would Walt have a problem with your typically very crowded day? I see little evidence that he didn't like a full park.
