Disney's FastPass System is Abusing Guests

Originally Posted By magnet

Some still see the FastPass issue I’ve raised essentially as a battle between FastPass guests and standby guests in which the source of complaints is the perception by one group that the other group is cutting in front of them.

That’s not the case I’ve made. (Some have raised the point that these social implications of FastPass ARE a part of the problem, and that's fine with me. However, I've chosen for myself not to argue from this point of view.)

Rebuttals I’ve encountered that show me people look at it this way are the following:

1. FastPasses are available to everyone for free, so just go get one.
2. FastPass guests arrived before standby guests.

The first rebuttal addresses only guest bitterness over seeing people with FastPasses walk past them. It does not weaken the argument that the FastPass system is worse than having a single queue. So, it really has no bearing on my case.

The second rebuttal has been shown in prior posts to have faulty reasoning behind it. Furthermore, it also does not address the case that FastPass is bad for guests overall.

The problem is that we’re told FastPass reduces waiting time. For those who only ride when they have a FastPass, it absolutely does. Of course, we also talked about how useful that additional time is to you and whether it’s worth what exclusive use of FastPass forces you to give up. What you’re not told is that the cost of FastPass is that there is a waiting time penalty for those who ride without them in standby. So, unless you use FastPass exclusively, there is no benefit, and in fact, the more times you try to ride, the bigger penalty you pay until you end up waiting more time than you would have waited if FastPass did not exist.

In my simplified example, two rides (one FastPass and one standby) was the break-even point and on the second ride without a FastPass you are very likely waiting much longer than you would have waited for three rides if FastPass did not exist. So, while the machinery that runs FastPass is operated in a way that makes the system look fair (i.e. tickets are freely available) what FastPass actually does overall is unfair to everyone – even those who use it.

Here’s another way to see it. Big Thunder Mountain can handle a certain number of people per hour. That number is fixed. If more people than the ride can handle per hour come into the ride, a line develops and waiting occurs. If there was only a standby line, then all of the trains would help move that excess group of people through the ride, meaning it would take less time to process that fluctuation. FastPass limits the amount of ride resources that can help move that excess influx through and so a longer and longer wait ensues.

FastPass is portrayed as a way to evenly spread people around the park, but since there is no limitation on a FastPass holder from entering the standby queue of that ride, it is unable to enforce this effect. In fact, in many cases, a FastPass holder will wait in standby for the FastPass window to open and so ride twice in succession. They very likely received no wait reduction over an exclusive standby queue. So, the number of guests using standby is only smaller by the number of people in FastPass queues at all FastPass enabled attractions. Since the point of FastPass is that the queue is EMPTY, the only reduction that can be assumed is the number of FastPass guests currently on those rides! Well, the ride itself without FastPass does that much! So, FastPass is a total failure as a way to distribute people throughout the park.

That’s a BIG problem on days when attendance is high. Since only 50% of the trains may service either group, the standby queue slows down and is less able to handle fluctuations in traffic (all of which still go to it). Furthermore, FastPass has done essentially nothing to limit the size of those fluctuations. Long standby waits could discourage some guests from entering standby, but when all the FP-enabled standby queues have long waits the guests get in the line anyway.

The only way to erase the problem is to either abolish the standby queue or the FastPass queue. One queue has to go in order to maximize the benefit of the other. Having both creates a system that provides fewer experiences for all.

 

Originally Posted By dsnykid

The same number of people will go through the ride regardless of Fastpass or standby line... just as sometimes the left line moves faster than the right line. I understand what you are saying, but Fastpass does not change the number of people a ride serves, and I would assume that Fastpass accounts for this when calculating the return times. Problems arise due to the fact that the park do not enforce the return times on the passes. If the return times were enforced,I believe, but can not prove, that the lines would not face the surges that they do now, according to you. After my last several trips to Disneyland, I never noticed an issue with Fastpass skewing the wait times, nor did I see anyone angered by Fastpass. I use it when it is convenient, but I certainly don't schedule my day around it, and until this month I never knew you could use Fastpasses after they expired. So I guess what I am saying is that Fastpass is not abusing guests, guests are abusing the benefits of Fastpass by not following the posted return times, and Disney appears to be skewing wait times but failing to enforce the return times.

 

Originally Posted By dsnykid

Sorry... Disney is skewing wait times BY failing to enforce the return times.

 

Originally Posted By trekkeruss

<<Since only 50% of the trains may service either group, the standby queue slows down and is less able to handle fluctuations in traffic (all of which still go to it).>>

Sorry, but you are using poor logic again. 100% of the trains service both queues. 50% DO NOT service one or the other. When a train pulls into the station, the CM doesn't load the train with only FP riders or only stand-by riders. The two lines merge before that point, and the CM loads it to capacity, or near-capacity.

 

Originally Posted By trekkeruss

^^Okay, I now see what you're trying to say... but you're assuming 50% of a ride's hourly capacity is given over to FP.

Anyway...

<<The second rebuttal has been shown in prior posts to have faulty reasoning behind it.>

As you and someone else has said, "No it hasn't."

<<The problem is that we’re told FastPass reduces waiting time. For those who only ride when they have a FastPass, it absolutely does.>>

Huh?

<<we also talked about how useful that additional time is to you and whether it’s worth what exclusive use of FastPass forces you to give up>>

By having a FP I give up having to stand in that long line.

<<What you’re not told is that the cost of FastPass is that there is a waiting time penalty for those who ride without them in standby. So, unless you use FastPass exclusively, there is no benefit>>

Huh? No benfit to who? There certainly is one for me with the FP... I didn't have to stand in the longer stand-by time.

<<in fact, the more times you try to ride, the bigger penalty you pay until you end up waiting more time than you would have waited if FastPass did not exist.>>

Double huh? There is no "in fact," What you're doing is making stuff up in your head. Besides, who in the heck is trying to ride the same ride over and over again?

<<In fact, in many cases, a FastPass holder will wait in standby for the FastPass window to open and so ride twice in succession.>>

You have zero idea of where people who are holding a FP are in the park. Sure, there are probably some riders who are holding a FP that are waiting in the stand-by queue of that same attraction, but I defy you to prove that it is "many" people.

<<They very likely received no wait reduction over an exclusive standby queue.>>

Are you sure you understand what you're saying? Because your theory doesn't seem to fit my practical experience.

<<Long standby waits could discourage some guests from entering standby, but when all the FP-enabled standby queues have long waits the guests get in the line anyway.>>

And this is different from when a ride only has one line in what way? Oh, and you're making another assumption that that person will only ride the FP attractions... they DON'T just stand in that line anyway. Some people, like me, won't bother at all... they go ride something else. Some people, like me, might have a FP, and not use it at all for one reason or another... I have done that many times.

<<The only way to erase the problem is to either abolish the standby queue or the FastPass queue.>>

Yeah, so you have said over and over. And I say over and over, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

<<Having both creates a system that provides fewer experiences for all.>>

Having 60,000 guests in the park instead of 40,000 is what is causing long waits, not FP.

 

Originally Posted By Goofyernmost

>>>Double huh? There is no "in fact," What you're doing is making stuff up in your head. Besides, who in the heck is trying to ride the same ride over and over again?<<<

I have to take slight issue with that statement. Two reasons...I have read on these boards countless times about people rushing to get a FP, then going to the standby line and riding that way and then using FP to ride again. Heck, even I, an on record hater of FP used it last February on Soarin'. We as a group went directly to Soarin' got a fastpass, did standby, came out went straight back on with FP and then went again with a left over FP from one of the group that didn't want to go again (using up an available FP that someone else might have gotten to see it just once thus adding again to the standby line). How's that for holding up the standby line and that was by just one person? Imagine how many times that can be duplicated.

Even though I thought myself as just about the cleverest traveler ever, I realized later that I had spent so much of my time indulging in Fasspass fever that I ran out of time to see some of my other favorites in Epcot. Didn't feel quite so clever then.

 

Originally Posted By trekkeruss

Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that a majority of riders do grab a FP and hop into the stand-by line in order to ride as many times as possible. Didn't people do this on popular rides before FP came along? I'd say those people held up the line too. Is everyone supposed to meter their enjoyment and think, "I better ride this attraction just once, for the sake of being fair to everyone else in the park"?

 

Originally Posted By trekkeruss

^^To add to that, when it does happen, it usually only happens in the morning. It doesn't apply to later in the day because the difference in time between getting a FP and the time that is avaiable is far greater than the stand-by wait time.

 

Originally Posted By Goofyernmost

Whatever...again I feel the need to repeat. It is not today that I am concerned with. I am not concerned about the length of lines, I am not concerned about how many FP's someone can get or not get, I am not concerned about whether or not this feature enhances the trip for a few, in fact, I wouldn't care if they charged for it. In fact, I think that when standing in line, I might even feel better knowing that the fools that paid for that Fastpass were going to see the same thing I was about to see for no additional charge. To repeat, I am not concerned about today. I am concerned about the overall Disney experience of the masses more than the few. I am concerned that 20 years from now there will not be the demand for Disney that there is now. Why? Because when they first went with their parents it was a frustrating experience not a happy one.

Am I over-reacting? You know what, I really, really hope so. I want there to be an alive, vibrant Disney Park for my grandchildren to bring their kids too. I truly hope that the kids that were dragged along in the Fastpass frenzy were able to get enough just plain fun out of the Disney experience to want to come back with their children.

You see, I have a difficult time debating this issue because I am talking about things that haven't happened yet, but, that I see in my thoughts as a possible bad side effect of this system. I am not a visionary, but, I have had this picture in my mind since the first day that FP was introduced, nothing has happened that has made that vision differ. It was the first thing I thought about when I became aware of it.

Also in response to the multiple ride situation. I really believe that the likelihood of repeat rides would be so much less without FP. I know that I would have seen Soarin' once and once only if I had to wait in line for it. So at specific hours of the day that would, in my case, make the line 1/3rd shorter.

 

Originally Posted By DouglasDubh

<I know that I would have seen Soarin' once and once only if I had to wait in line for it.>

So instead of riding Soarin' again, you'd probably be in some other line, making it longer.

 

Originally Posted By magnet

I want to make one last post as we rapidly approach two weeks from that Sunday at Big Thunder Mountain where I started to think about FastPass.

In these two weeks I’ve written careful arguments showing that multiple queue operation produces an overall system that is less beneficial to all guests. I’ve relied on facts, not guesses, and my approximations have taken into account the operation of FastPass under the best circumstances. In spite of these concessions in the operation, my conclusions still stand. The arguments have been laid out as clearly as I could with the time I had available to devote to writing these posts. All of the important information that one would need to follow my reasoning from beginning to end is contained in what I’ve written.

It’s impossible to satisfy everyone. There will always be a group of people who are blind to the truth. I don’t write these things for them. I write these things for those who have a willingness to listen and then think for themselves. The battle cry for those who have opposed me is, “I feel you’re wrong, so I challenge your reasoning.†It’s too bad that those who felt that way could not progress their arguments beyond that simple emotion. A lot of what I’ve written has not been opinion (though, of course, there’s plenty of opinion there as well). I’ve setup examples and followed them through to results which speak against FastPass. I’ve let these results determine my feelings about the system – not my feelings influence the reasoning of these examples. If I’ve made a mistake in those arguments, let me say I’m sorry ahead of time. Nevertheless, I’ve given up hope of finding much in the way of articulate opposition here.

Come to your own conclusion. But always make sure it’s really yours.

magnet out.

 

Originally Posted By mousermerf

Too bad your logic is horrible flawed.

 

Originally Posted By Goofyernmost

>>>So instead of riding Soarin' again, you'd probably be in some other line, making it longer.<<<

Right...so obviously, I might just as well stop since the point of my argument is either completely missed or ignored. Like I said before, FP exists today. Use it, that's what it's there for, but, allow me the right to be concerned that I think I see something that I feel is detrimental to the parks in the future.

 

Originally Posted By DouglasDubh

<I might just as well stop since the point of my argument is either completely missed or ignored.>

The point of your argument is understood. It's just that many of us feel it is flawed.

 

Originally Posted By Goofyernmost

>>>So instead of riding Soarin' again, you'd probably be in some other line, making it longer<<<

BINGO!!! That is exactly the idea. Without FP I am probably making some other line longer, but, not soarin'. Without FP I was only able to do that ride once. With FP you are in one Virtual line and eventually slow that one down when you redeem your pass, but, while you are waiting you are also making some other line longer.

The others are not where the problem lies. If you go back a few posts, I stated that it wasn't how long one had to wait in line as much as it is how I feel about that line. If I know that we are all waiting the same amount of time one may get distressed about the wait time, but, they don't get angry. If, on the other hand, I am standing in a very long slow moving line and FP people push ahead, it doesn't really matter why, whether I was too stupid to get one, not fully understanding the system, got there to late to get one or just didn't want one, my ride experience was just artificially delayed and consequently a less then "happy" experience.

That is the experience that has long range effects on the Disney Parks. Like I said, I would prefer that FP were sold because then, at least, I could know that some sucker paid extra to do it.

Or if FP isn't done away with at least hide the damn line so others, not seeing the influx of FP riders, won't have that immediate frustration. It's just good business to keep everyone in a good mood. I would be happy with it either way. Just don't make me have to witness the "Disney created" reason for my delay.

 

Originally Posted By Goofyernmost

>>>BINGO!!! That is exactly the idea. Without FP I am probably making some other line longer, but, not soarin'. Without FP I was only able to do that ride once. With FP you are in one Virtual line and eventually slow that one down when you redeem your pass, but, while you are waiting you are also making some other line longer.<<<

After I posted that I remembered that I didn't include that this is what happens when you multiple ride. But the indisputable fact is that at the time of FP usage, the standby line, at that particular place in time, is rendered longer. FP'ers love it, standbys don't. Simple math. Guess which line has the majority of people in it? Hence, a few happy, a lot of guests, not so much! But that is Disneys call, not mine. I will tell you this...if they ever modify it and limit it to on site guests then WDW will have seen my last visit.

They can then take the couple grand a year that I spend there and add it to the on-site guests bill...and they will, you can count on it.

 

Originally Posted By trekkeruss

I can't change the way you feel about FP, but for me and IMO, FP is not and probably will never be a deal-breaker. I can think of a lot more things that have the potential to turn me off to visiting the parks. Disney's over-reliance on their characters and the toonification of their parks is one. Not keeping their parks well maintained is another. But maybe you see those things as negative as well, and feel there has been a cumulative effect, with FP being one of the pieces that will cause the downfall.

 

Originally Posted By Goofyernmost

^^^^That is exactly how I feel. But, I also feel that lowered visiting (yes, I know that's not happening now) will create more neglect of maintenance and cleanliness and just the loss of that Magical feeling that we have come to expect.

FP is not a deal breaker for me now, but, as I said...when and if it gets to be a resort guest only perk, that will be a deal breaker.

 

Originally Posted By mickeyboy43

^^^^ Interestingly enough, many people already believe that it is a resort guest only perk. Many people that go in my area of town believe that it is for resort guests only and dont even try to get FP. I dunno.

And magnet, I really do care about your bad experience. Im not really sure where you pulled a feeling of animosity from, but Im sorry that I gave you that impression.

 

Originally Posted By MPierce

>> Sorry... Disney is skewing wait times BY failing to enforce the return times. <<

That definetly adds to the problem.

>> Too bad your logic is horrible flawed <<

His logic is flawed in your eyes simply because you disagree with it.