Originally Posted By barboy "FastPass is creating a hierarchy of guests within the park. Not everyone is on a level playing field anymore." Not really, this guest "hierarchy" has been in position well before FP's arrival. "Hierarchy" is found everywhere at WDW. Not all can stay at the Grand Floridian, some guests get front of the line via wheel chair, some guests can only afford counter service meals and others have to go off property for hotels.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>Not all can stay at the Grand Floridian, some guests get front of the line via wheel chair, some guests can only afford counter service meals and others have to go off property for hotels.<<< What are you talking about? Are the admission passes of those who stay at the Grand better than those who stay at an All-Star resort? No. Are the admission passes of those in wheelchairs less than those without handicap or disability? No. I don't understand this argument. It makes no sense. It's really very simple. FastPass creates two levels, the preferred guest and the stand-by guest. Sometimes you get to be the preferred guest and many times you are the stand-by guest. Just because the FastPasses are available to everyone does not mean these differences do not still exist. At each ride there is a set of preferred and stand-by guests. You are competing with other guests to be "preferred" at one time or another.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss "Preferred guests" have always existed, even before FP. If a guest isn't willing to get up and into the parks at opening on a busy day, guess what happens? They end up riding fewer attractions and waiting in longer lines. It's not the system, it's how a guest chooses to tour the parks. If FP wasn't there, you'd still be competing with other guests. The only difference is, without FP you can see the "preferred guests" standing in front of you.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>It's not the system, it's how a guest chooses to tour the parks. If FP wasn't there, you'd still be competing with other guests. The only difference is, without FP you can see the "preferred guests" standing in front of you.<<< No, that's a perversion of the usage of "preferred." A guest is not "preferred" just because they got into the same queue as you did but five or ten minutes prior. They are not waiting a shorter time than you are. His/Her wait could be exactly as long as yours. With FastPass, there is no doubt that the "preferred" guest has a shorter wait. That is the premise of the entire system. >>>"Preferred guests" have always existed, even before FP. If a guest isn't willing to get up and into the parks at opening on a busy day, guess what happens? They end up riding fewer attractions and waiting in longer lines.<<< FastPass does not alleviate crowding issues. Rather, it is overwhelmed by them. It is a reservation system for rides that allows you to trade the planning of your day and the accessibility of other rides for a minimized wait at the one you have selected. For a while, I was OK with that. But when the ride cannot handle the FastPass and stand-by load, then the FastPass lane should be restricted -- NOT the stand-by lane. Yet, that's not what happened on Sunday.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Yes, I stood in the stand-by line. I watched the times carefully once I realized what was happening.*** So, were the posted wait times way off or not?
Originally Posted By Disneymom443 To me it is sad what people now think the FP has become. Rember Disney created it so guest could do more in one day. If you are a preferred guest or not. My family doesn't run to all the FP machines to get tickets. We go to an attraction get a FP and go to an attration near by that does not have a long wait. If they are out (FP) then we do the standby. No big deal, we are in no huge hurry. My son (4) loves to see all of the things in the queue. Sometimes things just need to roll of our shoulders and smile. Getting fusterated will not change a thing. ºoº
Originally Posted By brerroadrunner I think the frustration lies with the parks being more crowded most of the time. The days of 10 moinute or less waits are over. When Disney first introduced Extra Magic Hours(evening), it was great. Then those hours rapidly filled and waits were 30-45 minutes at times for the main attractions. The fact is more and more people are visiting. If Disney woould increase their hours and do away with those ticketed events, the crowds could spread out during the day and evenings. Our best times were at 11-12 at night when the parks stayed open late. Now those times are even crowded. You can only accomodate so many people in a given time, so increase the time. I love the parks late at night when it is not crowded. Ever notice how when the lines start getting shorter, they will take trains off or shut down a side at Big Thunder and create longer lines. The same at Space Muntain and others. Indy Speedway always is a long wait and rarely do they use the full lanes. Can't have to short of lines. Oh no, we must make those guests wait. Now if Fast Pass is harder to get and use or you still end up waiting, I am going to have to rethink my vacation plans.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>So, were the posted wait times way off or not?<<< Yes. The posted wait time was thirty minutes as I entered the stand-by queue. I waited one hour. When I exited the ride, the posted time agreed with how long I had waited, and the line was now more than twice as long as best as I could tell.
Originally Posted By Mr X Well, that is unusual then. They're usually pretty good with posted wait times. I think once in a while it just comes down to random chance. Usually within that time window FP holders pretty much stroll in throughout the hour, but occasionally the fates will conspire and an unusually large number of them happen to appear at the same time. As long as it's not a normal occurrence, I don't think it's any evidence that "the system is broken" or anything like that. I'd be curious though, to hear of more stories like this. I've seen plenty of "flooded" fastpass queues at Tokyo Disney, but the posted wait times are usually spot on or even a little overstated.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>My family doesn't run to all the FP machines to get tickets.<<< This is not the point of my complaint. I'm not upset at the guests who are using their FastPasses. I'm glad you love the parks. I do too. But I'm not going to smile while someone kicks me in the rear. >>>I think once in a while it just comes down to random chance. Usually within that time window FP holders pretty much stroll in throughout the hour, but occasionally the fates will conspire and an unusually large number of them happen to appear at the same time.<<< Well, I can't speak to repeatability. There isn't enough time in a day anymore. In many queues it's also not possible to see what's going on ahead of you. Yet, the particular layout of the Big Thunder queue made it possible to watch this happen. Otherwise, I would have noticed that I waited much longer than expected but with no idea why. If it happened once, it can happen again. Nevertheless, at least in my mind, there's a line that's crossed when you shut-off access to a ride to a certain group no matter how fleeting or unusual the circumstances are. That line should never be crossed. If we're all going to get along having one lane for FastPass and one lane for stand-by, then fine. But we have to stick to that arrangement. If the fates conspire, then the FastPass line will just have to backup. The FastPass lane should have to shoulder the burden if people want to come 2 and 3 hours past their windows, which I think you must permit. The stand-by lane should not suffer for that load though.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***If the fates conspire, then the FastPass line will just have to backup.*** That's not the way it works though. ***The FastPass lane should have to shoulder the burden if people want to come 2 and 3 hours past their windows*** This I agree with. They are much stricter about latecomers in Tokyo. I think far fewer people do it, for one thing. And although they will grudgingly allow you in usually, they always appear upset about it, and will often ask questions (so someone who was, actually, stuck on a ride somewhere for an hour or something can be let through).
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<<>>>"Preferred guests" have always existed, even before FP. If a guest isn't willing to get up and into the parks at opening on a busy day, guess what happens? They end up riding fewer attractions and waiting in longer lines.<<< FastPass does not alleviate crowding issues. Rather, it is overwhelmed by them. It is a reservation system for rides that allows you to trade the planning of your day and the accessibility of other rides for a minimized wait at the one you have selected.>> You missed my point, which is that there is always someone who has gotten more for their money because they made some modicum of effort, whether it's because of pre-planning months in advance, getting up early, and.or using FP. I did not claim that FP alleviates crowds; that's not its purpose. But it *is* fair to everyone, because it is made accessible to all and is free.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>You missed my point, which is that there is always someone who has gotten more for their money because they made some modicum of effort, whether it's because of pre-planning months in advance, getting up early, and.or using FP.<<< OK, fine. There are differences among guests. Yes, some are richer and some may be more saavy than others in a variety of regards. However, as I've said, I'm not faulting the guests for using the system and getting from it what they can. I use it. I will continue to use it. I will play the game. I keep running into this notion that deep down I'm really just upset because of the large crowds that always seem to be at WDW these days. OK. I admit it. I'm human. Yes, I do despair when I enter the park and have trouble passing under the railroad tracks. I mourn inside as I watch a sea of people storm Main Street at 9 AM. But I also realize that those dollars and high attendance mean that good things (hopefully!) are in the pipeline for the parks. So, I can deal. I do, however, have a problem when the stand-by line is shut-off to allow a glut of FastPass users who decided to come one, two, and three hours after their windows have expired. Should FastPass holders be held strictly to their time windows? Here in the US, this is not feasible. You can prevent them from getting on early, but you will have a major issue cutting them off. CMs will be having nervous breakdowns trying to clamp down on this. Absolutely not happening. So what do you do? Well, you can go on with the status quo, in which case let's just bite the bullet and give everyone rigid schedules or you can try to strike a balance. I would prefer to try to strike a balance if we're going to have to live with this system. There need to be boundaries set to protect the movement of the stand-by line when FastPass surges occur.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Should FastPass holders be held strictly to their time windows? Here in the US, this is not feasible.*** Not feasible? That's ridiculous. Fastpasses are free, there's no obligation by the management to do anything extra. All they need to do is print on the ticket "must be used during the times printed, NO EXCEPTIONS", and then enforce it. It's gotten so ridiculous, at this point we've got guide books actually RECOMMENDING that people stock up on fastpasses to be used at the end of the day. That, if it's the real cause of the problem, would be easy to fix.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>Not feasible?<<< Yup. >>>That's ridiculous.<<< Nope. >>>That, if it's the real cause of the problem, would be easy to fix.<<< Perhaps it's not the whole cause, but there is no strictly enforced cut-off as far as I can tell. I recently watched one CM practically flip out while trying to explain to a guest why he couldn't use his 7 PM FastPass at 3:30 PM. CMs are having these conversations nearly all the time with guests. There's always a little crowd huddled around the CM trying to soften him up and getting him to let them in anywhere from five minutes to a half-hour early. I can hardly imagine the frenzy a solid cut-off would incite. Another time the same day I watched a Mother and daughter cut into the Splash Mountain FastPass queue ahead of the first CM blockade only to be caught trying to pass off their later-window FastPasses to the CM letting them onto the load platform. He was observant, caught them, and turned them away. They weren't happy -- but that's too bad. No, once you've given the guest a FastPass he's eventually going to ride it come hell or high water. You've got to meter FastPass usage another way, two time boundaries per ticket are not uniformly enforceable by CMs. It's a weakness of the current FastPass system.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>I disagree, and also feel you are exaggerating the issue.<<< Strict enforcement of a FastPass cut-off time is not currently doable at WDW. It's not realistic to think that you can just tell a guest that his FastPass has expired. At least when he tried to get in early the CM can say come back later, but now you are telling him that it's game over. Regardless of whether you agree it can be done or not, or whether or not you think it's an exaggeration, the point right now is -- it's not happening. This discussion is also a digression from my complaint over what happened on Sunday. I'm NOT advocating unrealistic enforcement of FastPass time windows. I AM advocating the setting of strict boundaries in ride operation to preserve the flow of the stand-by line when FastPass redemptions surge. Stopping stand-by guests from riding for thirty minutes out of an hour long wait because you have too many FastPasses being redeemed is not an acceptable solution. It's also a problem about which I don't mind doing a little screaming.
Originally Posted By SFH One drawback I see the FastPass is that it means at least one person in the party must walk to and from the attraction an additional time (in addition to riding it), thus adding crowding to the walkways. However, that is a tradeoff that Disney could easily find to be worth it, considering what they see the benefits to be. SFH
