Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>>There is a solution, it's called getting out of bed and getting your crap together. Don't want to do it? Wait in line then.<<< Ah yes, the mantra of the Theme Park Commando. Nice! FastPass is a nice idea that has outlived its usefullness. It's been around long enough that certain folks know how to "work" it. If people have to establish some intense battle plan to experience the park as suggested by the above quote, then it's time to send Fast Pass to Yesterland.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 FastPass is a nice idea that has outlived its usefullness. It's been around long enough that certain folks know how to "work" it. If people have to establish some intense battle plan to experience the park as suggested by the above quote, then it's time to send Fast Pass to Yesterland.<< The number of guests who abuse Fast Pass isn't probably as high at WDW than it is at DL. I think the number of APs at Disneyland scew things a bit, not this isn't a knock on AP's at all, but they have been around long enough to work the system a bit more than the average tourist to WDW.
Originally Posted By Mr X Nothing comes close to fastpass "abuse" in Tokyo though, William. They don't break any rules, mind you. But if you intend to get one of them golden tickets, be prepared to fight for it! ;p
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 Nothing comes close to fastpass "abuse" in Tokyo though, William. They don't break any rules, mind you. But if you intend to get one of them golden tickets, be prepared to fight for it! ;p<< To be able to skip a 3 hour line on a crappy ride like Pooh, I don't blame them one bit... ;o)
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan That is true. In general, we found people at WDW to be much less Them Park Commando than folks at DL tend to be. We really only had one incident in Florida, while waiting for Rock & Roller Coaster. The line barely moved, while a constant stream of fast passers went on through. When we did finally get to the last part of the line, a mob of teenagers stampeded past us, almost knocking us down. We exchanged words and they settled down and let us through.
Originally Posted By Mr X Actually, the FASTPASS line for Pooh is three hours William. The standby consists of tents, c-rations, and a sort of fantasyland shantytown that I really don't want to get into right now. K2M, you should've tripped em with your cane. That's what I do. Whippersnappers.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>So instead they should have a solid plan for operating FastPass that doesn't cave in if a few guests start screaming because they had to wait ten minutes more in the standby queue on a busy day? Because basically that is what you are advocating.<<< You know, I've really learned a lot about communication by interacting with people online. I think it's helped me tremendously to understand how difficult transmitting your message can be. Just because we can post a message that can be seen instantly by people on the other side of the Earth doesn't really mean that we've communicated at all. You haven't communicated until the other person understands the message you wanted to deliver. A lot of times folks think they understand what you are saying, but when it comes back to you from them it's often really messed up. I used to think that if you spent enough time crafting what you wanted to say, you could say it once and then that would be it. The message is delivered. I don't believe that anymore. Now, I think you have to say it over and over again, but not always in the same way with the same words. That doesn't mean that peparing those words carefully is not important, it's just that no one set of words is perfect for everyone. So let me try again for you, trekkeruss. There should be no competition between FastPass and standby queues. To run FastPass in such a way creates a lot of problems such as the one I experienced on Sunday. The existence of FastPass means we've all essentially agreed to give up some portion of ride resources so folks who have these tickets can experience a shortened waiting period. That's OK under certain conditions. First of all, the FastPasses must be free and freely available to anyone at the park. If I were complaining just because guests were using FastPasses and I didn't have one, then someone could tell me to go jump rightfully because I could have and should have gone and gotten one. But I'm not complaining about guests redeeming FastPasses, even ones that are late, so to jump right to the kiss off doesn't fly. OK? Before FastPass existed, all of the ride resources were devoted to the so-called "standby" guests allowing that line to move as quickly as possible. However, some of those resources were offered up to create the FastPass system. So, the FastPass queue should be operated in such a way as to be respectful of standby guests since it is they who've lost in order that FastPass can exist. The standby guest should not expect only to ride if no FastPass guests are around. Shutting down the standby line to let only FastPass riders through for thirty minutes out of an hour long wait is the height of disrespect, in a certain sense. Since we all at times are either FastPass or standby guests there really is no reason for one to identify with or advocate the advance of one group over the other. OK, if the respect angle is not working for you, let's try another one. The second condition I think is necessary for FastPass is that there must be an upper limit to the amount of ride resources devoted to moving FastPass guests through. That quota must be strictly maintained. In this way the resources devoted to each group, FastPass and standby, are decoupled. FastPass must operate with its allotment and standby must operate within what remains. If FastPass usage is low, then more resources can revert back to standby, but if FastPass redemtion surges for whatever reason, there is a specific limit beyond which no more resources are consumed by FastPass. if the ride is operated in this way, then there is no conflict between FastPass and standby. FastPass gets its chunk and no more. Standby cannot complain because in this case FastPass remains confined to the max level of resources that were agreed to be offered for its operation. Personally, I think FastPass should never be allowed to occupy more than 50% of the ride's capacity at any time. If the FastPass line begins to backup with that quota in place, then it's time to think about how many tickets are being issued. However, these details are a matter for someone who knows operations to decide. In this way, the operation of FastPass remains respectful of the standby riders and the FastPass guests should not develop a sense of entitlement to ride at the expense of the standby queue. That's a FastPass system I can live with. OK, so let's look at what you had to say. It looks like you said that the operation of FastPass should ignore standby guests who are screaming that they had to wait ten extra minutes in the queue on a busy day. Well, I think the answer there is a definite, Yes! The operation procedure should neither cave to one queue nor the other because of guest complaints. Absolutely that is correct as long as the queues are managed non-competitively as I outlined above. I think that latter condition I mentioned there was the sticking point between us. OK, so did you get that now?
Originally Posted By ChiMike Postulation: Fastpass is not fair to every guest With DreamFastPass and soon, the handheld devices, Fastpass no longer treats EVERY guest the SAME way. NOT EVERY guest gets the same usage of FP as others do. Postulation: Fastpass merge points are not consistently operated. All CMs are NOT created equal and under these times within WDP&R where training and staff turnover are at all time negatives one cannot expect ratios to be executed under such military precision as they were 30 years ago. It isn't a big leap to think that queues are often mismanaged or neglected when it comes to exact FP ratios. Postulation: Disney devalues their attractions at a faster rate than what would otherwise happen because of FP. When people don't have to wait in 20 or 30 min. lines for a porportionally smaller attraction experience they tend to mentally devalue the attraction. They tend to devalue the amount of time they are willing to wait for said attraction. This is self-defeating for Disney because attractions that use to stand the test of time are now being experienced so rapidly, so often, and for little opportunity cost, that they become outdated much more quickly. They suffer from over-exposure, if such a thing could really happen in a Disney park. Postulation: As long as FP return times are ignored the entire system is flawed. Considering the first three points, as well as the fact that Disney wastes resources on FP which could otherwise be allocated towards custodial or running attractions with more ride vehicles (thus larger capacity and shorter lines), ..... considering all of this, and the idea that the entire system is flawed because Disney is once again afraid to enforce their very own standards, one can see that FP is not the best system and it is not good for park management, the guest, or even the WDI designers. The best system is the system that worked for 44 years. That is, get in line, wait, and ride. Simple. Easy. Fair. Cheap. Social. People are simply spoiled now a days. I'm afraid this is something akin to inventing something that can't be "un-invented". I don't see a way to turn back unless Disney does go forward with charging the heck out of this. Maybe under those circumstances this whole thing will blow up and go away like a bad nightmare. If you enjoy using FP, more power to you. You are a good person and are doing what is neccessary to enjoy your stay with Disney. For me, I sure miss lining up in BTMR's queue on a spring night that is slightly hazy. Looking out the window and multiple trains cycling around the mountain. Taking it all in and enjoying the anticipation. Walking at a constant pace through a 25 min. wait that everyone accepted as the most fair way to handle "first come, first serve"
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle >>When people don't have to wait in 20 or 30 min. lines for a porportionally smaller attraction experience they tend to mentally devalue the attraction<< I don't know about this. I love Peter Pan, but when my friend went on it for the first time she was horribly disappointed because she'd waited half an hour in line for such a short ride. I think if she'd had a 5-minute wait she would have loved it. Maybe I haven't experienced problems with Fastpass because I usually go in November, not in the busy summer months.
Originally Posted By ChiMike And just for good measure: FP gave reason for WDI to stop focusing on the initial "Act" of each attraction whether it be the queue or pre-show. FP causes walkways to be more crowded FP causes queues to spill out on the walkways and/or take up more walkway space. FP causes standby lines to move slower which takes a person to stand still longer than in the past pre-FP. Pre-FP people waiting in lines tended to move more with less standing around. On a macro-level this brings the guest-wide anexiety level to a much higher level that I think is more evident when reading about this or that altercation or display of bad manners. Something I don't think we will ever see a Disney survey-taker address. With FP, some guests get a 5 minute wait while others might have to wait 60 minutes. Pre-FP that could have been a 35-40 minute wait for everyone. Looking at this park-wide, resort-wide, the advantage is to the frequent guest, e.g. message board poster. Folks who have "seen-it, done-it" are more likely to need a FP to ride an attraction than somebody on one of their first visits who want to experience as much as they can regardless of wait. Disney, by their own accord, has already admitted that FP is a flawed, counter-productive system by eliminating it from half of the rides that had it at DL and limiting its installation on new attractions. That should say it all. Again, I can understand advocating the use of this anti-guest Disney perk. I can understand why people use it. I USE IT. I just don't understand why people at this level, at the level of posting in detail conversations on a fan site, would kid themselves into thinking this is the BEST system for Disney and the guest.
Originally Posted By ChiMike <<>>When people don't have to wait in 20 or 30 min. lines for a porportionally smaller attraction experience they tend to mentally devalue the attraction<< I don't know about this. I love Peter Pan, but when my friend went on it for the first time she was horribly disappointed because she'd waited half an hour in line for such a short ride. I think if she'd had a 5-minute wait she would have loved it. Maybe I haven't experienced problems with Fastpass because I usually go in November, not in the busy summer months. >> People use to wait 45 mins. for Peter Pan. Some people today with FP have to wait 60+ mins. for Peter Pan during peak time. So I would suggest that under this example they would be disappointed unless it was a very small wait. To really put your example into perspective one should ask: Did this visit occur before 1999? How long did she wait for other attractions that she liked? Which rides did she FP? etc. etc. etc. If anything this example proves my point. Pre-FP a 30 minute wait for most high-profile attractions was pretty acceptable. With FP, that threshold has been significantly lowered and thus a classic since 1955 is "a disappointment" .... because of why?>??? Because of a wait. Guests have been conditioned, by Disney no less, to not tolerate waits. What a bone-headed move on Disney's part.
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle >>If anything this example proves my point. Pre-FP a 30 minute wait for most high-profile attractions was pretty acceptable ... Guests have been conditioned, by Disney no less, to not tolerate waits.<< Well, it was her first trip so she didn't really know that a 30-minute wait or more is pretty typical for Peter Pan. Also, it was in January on a rainy and windy day when the park was basically dead, so I don't really think the Fastpass system had anything to do with her ideas about how long the wait would be, because I don't think she was really Fastpassing anything (or certainly not most things) due to being there at a really quiet time. Also, I should add this was at Disneyland where PP doesn't have Fastpass - sorry, I should have mentioned that in my last post. To answer your questions: Did this visit occur before 1999? - No, it was about 2003 or 2004, something like that. How long did she wait for other attractions that she liked? - Everything was pretty much a walk-on, but I've been with her since and she was pretty willing to queue up for most things (Pooh and Peter Pan are the exceptions that come to mind!) Which rides did she FP? - I don't know that she did any, I wasn't with her on that trip, but I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't because the lines were so short. I agree Fastpass has its limitations, but I don't personally see standing in a queue for a shorter amount of time as one of them.
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle >>I agree Fastpass has its limitations<< I meant to say 'problems' but gremlins attacked my keyboard.
Originally Posted By ChiMike Liberty Belle: Well, then, I will just chalk that up to personal taste. At DL, Peter Pan is consistently one of the longest (wait time) queues in the park. I do think you are missing my point: >>I agree Fastpass has its limitations, but I don't personally see standing in a queue for a shorter amount of time as one of them. << For you its not. For Disney it is. It is training the guest to accept less of a wait for attractions that are doing nothingb but aging. Now Disney has guests who require shorter waits while standby lines are reaching historic wait times because the addition of FP. Don't get me wrong. People have always groaned about wait times. It's the nature of the amusement park biz. But Disney would have you believe that the guests were storming City Hall with pitchforks demanding A SOLUTION! Basically, waits pre-FP were pretty much accepted and anticipated by most who were coming in through the turnstyles. FP was not created to aid guests in wait times. FP was brought to us by the same regime who built a theme park that was basically restaurants and stores. FP was brought to us so we would theoretically spend more on food and merchandise with all the extra time on our hands. But that didn't happen. That's why FP has been a failure for Disney. And that's why Disney will find another way to make money off of FP, why there will be a tiered system. See, the folks that brought us DCA and FP are the same folks who didn't understand why guests came to the Disney parks. That guests come to the Disney parks to ride attractions. So, when a guest has more time in a Disney park, that guest will not default to more shopping or eating. No, that guest will seek out more attractions. It was a surprise, and certainly accidental, that attractions like Tiki, CoP, and CBJ saw a spike in attendance during the early stages of FP because of this phenomenon.
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle >>I do think you are missing my point<< Quite honestly, I think you might be missing my point! >>At DL, Peter Pan is consistently one of the longest (wait time) queues in the park.<< Yeah, and I said earlier that I love it. I'll wait for it if I have to, but because the ride itself is so short I'll definitely go early in the morning or late at night and get a shorter queue if I can. I know you're saying shorter lines might be bad for Disney because then guests start looking for more to do and can see more in a shorter period of time. I understand that, but what I'm talking about here is the fact that you said guests subconciously 'devalue' an attraction if they wait a shorter time. For me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one (well I know I'm not, my family members who I've gone with, at the very least, have said the same thing) I become a harsher critic if I wait in line for 40 minutes than if I have a 10 minute wait or less. I start to think 'if the line's this long, the ride must be really good'. That can lead to disappointment - 'yeah, it's okay but not worth the wait'. I don't see what's unnatural about that.
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle Basically this is my thought process on Fastpass. I don't mean to sound argumentative! I'm just trying to explain my points. I agree with you that shorter queue lines aren't necessarily the best case scenario for Disney. I *most definitely* agree with you that FP has decreased the value of queue lines, and that's its biggest problem in my mind. To some extent I do agree that FP makes guests more impatient when standing in lines that don't offer FP. I don't think that Fastpass creates an unequal or hierarchical system, simply based on the fact that it's offered equally to everyone (Dream Fastpasses not withstanding, but I really don't think they create a huge impact on an average day). I don't agree that guests devalue an attraction in their head because they wait in a shorter line. Keep in mind that I do only go in November, so I'm not there for the busiest times of the year. Also, I'm an international tourist, not an AP holder or regular visitor so that might change my perspective. I only get to the Disney parks every 2 years.
Originally Posted By barboy "Before FastPass existed, all of the ride resources were devoted to the so-called "standby" guests allowing that line to move as quickly as possible. However, some of those resources were offered up to create the FastPass system." This should be in some textbook because it addresss a basic economic issue: since BTMRR's resources(or the ability to process guests) are ***finite***, FP creates an "opportunity cost" for Standyby--- that is for every FP guest processed/serviced that means one less standyby guest who gets serviced.
Originally Posted By alexbook >>Don't get me wrong. People have always groaned about wait times. It's the nature of the amusement park biz. But Disney would have you believe that the guests were storming City Hall with pitchforks demanding A SOLUTION!<< I'd believe them, too. For people who visit once in a lifetime, or once in a decade, or even once a year, having to spend a lot of time queuing is going to ruin their vacation. FP was an attempt to deal with that. My question for the anti-Fast Pass folks on here, is: Do you have a better idea? Whether you like it or not, FP *is* reducing the average amount of time people spend waiting in line. Maybe it doesn't do this fairly, or sufficiently, but it's better than nothing.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "My question for the anti-Fast Pass folks on here, is: Do you have a better idea?" Yes, add more attractions without increasing the amount of people you let in the park. That would allow the crowds to spread out a little more and the queues would be shorter. Of course, they won't actually do this, but it would solve the "long line" problem.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 Of course, they won't actually do this, but it would solve the "long line" problem.<< No because additional guests would just come with an increased capacity.
