Originally Posted By plpeters70 "No because additional guests would just come with an increased capacity." Disney does have a maximum on the number of guests they allow into the parks at any one time. I know that if they added attractions they would probably just raise this, but they don't have to.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<add more attractions without increasing the amount of people you let in the park. That would allow the crowds to spread out a little more and the queues would be shorter.>> As far as DLR is concerned, the more they add to DCA, the more it theoretically will do just as you say. Guests who are staying at the resort will spend more time at DCA, alleviating some of the crowding in DL.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>Whether you like it or not, FP *is* reducing the average amount of time people spend waiting in line. Maybe it doesn't do this fairly, or sufficiently, but it's better than nothing.<<< Is FastPass reducing the amount of time a guest waits, on average, in queues at Disney attractions? I'm not so sure I agree that this is obviously true. I would have to see some data to be convinced. FastPass clearly reduces your waiting time when you redeem a ticket for one specific ride. However, you pay back at least some of that time you gained when you wait in the standby line at another FastPass attraction where you don't have a ticket. For example, say you collect the maximum number of FastPasses that are allowed to you on one day. You only ride those FastPass rides when you can redeem your tickets, and the rest of the time you spend waiting in non-FastPass ride queues. For you, FastPass clearly shortened your wait time overall, but you gave up both the flexibility of when to ride those attractions and also the opportunity to ride them more times than you had FastPasses to redeem. So, the more I think about it, the more I begin to see FastPass as a zero-sum game. Yes, you gained some relief from waiting in queues, but you also agreed to limit the number of times you experienced FastPass attractions. In the end, the question for this person becomes -- "Which do I value more: shorter queues or a greater number of rides?" So, we can conclude that FastPass clearly does not allow you to experience more rides on FastPass attractions in one day. In fact, it forces you to limit repeat experiences on those popular rides. You can only safely say that you may get more rides in on non-FastPass attractions with the time you saved. Now, let's continue on with this line of reasoning. If FastPass actually forces you to limit the number of times you experience FastPass attractions, you might begin to ask yourself, "Of what use is all this time I'm saving, anyway?" Well, for the person above, he decided to use it riding non-FastPass rides, in which case he may actually have gotten more rides that day than he would have without FastPass. OK, but then one might object by saying that rides without FastPass ticket machines typically have shorter queues making waits for those rides rather short anyhow, and how many times does someone really want to ride Dumbo, anyway? Good question. OK, well one could always decide to go ahead and wait in the standby queues for the FastPass attractions with that extra time. In that case, now you immediately start giving back all that time you saved because the ride's ability to handle standby guests is restricted in order to process FastPass. Let me demonstrate how FastPass can actually begin to hurt you with a simple example. Let's say that the standby queue at a FastPass attraction operates consistently at a 60 minute wait all day long. Let's further assume that 50% of the ride's resources are devoted to processing FastPass and that FastPass tickets are metered so that ticket redemption fully uses that allotted 50% without the line backing up. That means there are zero people in the FastPass queue and therefore no wait for the ride. The time gain by using FastPass is then 30 minutes. One can easily see, however, that the FastPass gain is erased if the guest waits in the standby queue only ONCE since each time the guest waits an additional 30 minutes more than he otherwise would if FastPass did not exist. This is true because without FastPass there are now twice as many resources available to process the standby guests. But we must be careful here, because though we did away with FastPass, we did not erase those FastPass guests -- they are in standby now. Nevertheless, the wait will still be thirty minutes because, as we postulated at the beginning of this example, the additional burden of the FastPass queue is zero AND all of those FastPass guests who were once entering their queue AFTER you, but riding BEFORE you, must now wait for you to get your turn first. Therefore, the result of dissolving FastPass in this case is that the standby queue length remains the same (since the total number of people is conserved), but it moves twice as fast. (If you are bothering to still follow along with me, please point out if I've made an error in my reasoning here.) Therefore, in 60 minutes a guest can get two rides with FastPass and two rides if FastPass did not exist. BUT, the FastPass system now penalizes you 30 minutes for each additional standby ride after this point. One legitimate objection to this argument is that people who have FastPass tickets with start times a few hours later might otherwise try to crowd into the standby queue and lengthen the wait there if they did not have the FastPass ticket. I counter that there’s no guarantee that this delaying effect will happen with enough consistency to have a significant impact on the standby queue. Rather, FastPass might encourage someone with a FastPass ticket to stay and wait in the standby queue if their window is coming up within the duration of the standby queue wait. I would essentially expect that these higher order repelling and attracting corrections might generally cancel each other. Queue lengths are also self-limiting because the longer it is, the less people are willing to enter it. So, one can now see that for these conditions FastPass provides no benefit after ONE standby ride AND it actually works AGAINST you if you decide to ride more than one additional time. So, one can argue that FastPass, even under conditions in which it is run well, does not give you the opportunity to get more rides in a day. It LIMITS the rides you can get. So, what is the only logical thing to do? The only good response is to get your FastPass ticket, redeem the ticket, and then stop riding. If you go farther you will erase your benefit. So again, what do you do with the extra time? The only thing that you can really do with the extra time that makes much sense is to spend it in the shops and restaurants. So, there -- it is now proved that the only benefit of FastPass is to free up some time for you that can be used to spend more money buying Disney merchandise. There really is no other perk to FastPass. Here, it is now clearly shown why it makes sense for Disney to tolerate FastPass since it can benefit their bottom line while giving you essentially no advantage (though it seems like you're getting one). In fact, since the standby waits are longer, this encourages you to stop riding altogether and spend all that remaining time in one of the shops. So, Disney actually makes out like a bandit.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost You know Magnet, I've been arguing this case for many years and it, quite frankly, falls on deaf ears. The joy of walking up to a particular ride and boarding ahead of those "uninformed" louts standing in standby is just too much to give up. Everyone focused on Fastpass and it's greatness cannot see the big picture. They cannot see what the long range problems are. They cannot understand that first time visitors that may not be knowledgeable as to the exact nature of Fastpass spend their entire vacation in lines watching others legally cut in front. Those people, or many of them may not be back. They, their family's, the resulting next generations, people like ourselves that make repeated trips will stop. It may sound ideal now, but, the resulting decreased business, over the long haul, will result in fewer improvements, lessening maintenance and the like. I'm not talking about immediate visual results, I'm talking long range. When WDW opened there were long lines, but, none over an hour with the exception of Space Mountain and that was occupied mostly by tweens. We waited in line and so did everyone else. The emotion that was missing at that time was anger. We stood in line, talked, moaned about the length of time and generally whined about it, but, there was no anger. Try it now and see what you get. Fastpass is wonderful, if you have one. If not it is a pain. Sadly, it is a minority that gets one due to the makeup of the system. So a few are happy and a lot are angry. Do the math and see what that adds up to. With that I will stop because we have beat this dead horse many times on these threads and no one has ever been convinced that they might not have recognized the down side. I think Disney has started too, by the fact that there are fewer Fastpass opportunities then there used to be.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 Fastpass is wonderful, if you have one. If not it is a pain. Sadly, it is a minority that gets one due to the makeup of the system. So a few are happy and a lot are angry. Do the math and see what that adds up to.<< I love this argument because basically you are saying, because some people are too stupid to understand the Fast Pass system, we should cater to their stupidity. I was always taught growing up, if I don't know about something I ask. If I saw a bunch of people "cutting" in front of me in line, I'd ask and one of them would probably say "Fast Pass" then I would remember the Fast Pass rules printed on every map and go...Oh that's what Fast Pass is for...I would then ask a CM about FP and they would assist me and I would get one for another attraction. People say we are dumbing down attractions, I say if we get rid of Fast Pass, we are dumbing down queues, if someone doesn't know or doesn't understand Fats Pass I blame it on them, it's not like Disney keeps it a secret, otherwise the FP booths would be hidden underneath the park and only those "in the know" would know how to access them. Give me a break...
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>I love this argument because basically you are saying, because some people are too stupid to understand the Fast Pass system, we should cater to their stupidity.<<< Not even close! Yes, there are some that don't know it exists. It isn't stupidity (and I'm not sure why you would jump to that thought), but, lack of Disney savvy. The problem is that because of limited Fastpass distribution those in the standby line will always be in the majority. Always...no way around it. Until they allow a FP for over 51% of all guests it cannot be any other way. So before calling others stupid get your facts straight. The ones not in the know are a very small part of the standby problem. Give us all a break! FP is a bad overall idea that they don't know how to fix now that they got it started. It makes a few happy and a large group unhappy. Not a good business philosophy in anyones book.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 Not even close! Yes, there are some that don't know it exists. It isn't stupidity (and I'm not sure why you would jump to that thought), but, lack of Disney savvy. The problem is that because of limited Fastpass distribution those in the standby line will always be in the majority. Always...no way around it. Until they allow a FP for over 51% of all guests it cannot be any other way. So before calling others stupid get your facts straight. The ones << Every Disney Map I have ever seen printed since FP has been around has had exact instructions on how to use Fast Pass, I am willing to bet that the majority in Stand By lines, are there by choice, and the others are probably too illiterare to read the instructions on how to use Fast Pass. I know my sister, when she wants to go on a ride, she wants to go on it then and not 3 hours later, so she'd stay in stand by line over a later return with FP. It's not a lack of "Disney savvy" because FP instructions ARE ECERYWHERE, if they opened their eyes they would read all about Fast Pass.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 " I am willing to bet that the majority in Stand By lines, are there by choice, and the others are probably too illiterare to read the instructions on how to use Fast Pass." Or perhaps they just don't want to wait 5 hours to come back and ride the attraction. It's really not all that uncommon to have a FastPass return time that is 4 to 5 hours later in the day. And, of course, on busy days the passes can all be gone by noon. And anyway, the FastPass system only works BECAUSE there are people willing to wait in the stand-by queue. Think about it - if Disney handed a FastPass to every person that came up to the ride, we would have the exact same situation as if there wasn't any FastPass at all. So, they only give a limited number out, and make the rest wait in line. Some get to spend their wait time elsewhere doing other things, and some must stand around and wait in line. So why is this a fair system again?
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 So why is this a fair system again?<< How is it not a fair system, Disney hands out an equal number of Fast Passes every day and allows everyone an opportunity to get one, even going so far as to limiting the number of Fast Passes so one group can't hog them all. Disneyland's version of FP is much more fair than the parks where you pay 50 dollars to skip to the front of the line. I just think how the critics are harping on the poor saps whop are forced to stand in 6 hour lines because they just don't understand Fast Pass.... Seriously though, understanding Fast Pass is not Brain surgery, my 4 year old knows how to use it.....
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 Just like Day after Thanksgiving sales, the stores give everyone an opportunity for 99 dollar PS3's, but only the first 100 will get it for that price. How is that any less fair than Fast Pass? Disneyland has found the most fair way of doing this and people still whine and complain. I am willing to place 100 dollars right here on the table that if Disney were to get rid of Fast Pass today, the same people complaining about Fast Pass would coomplain about the long stand by lines....
Originally Posted By mousermerf All the anti-FP people.. Have you considered that ride capacity is a set number during the operation? And if all the people in the FP queue and the standby queue wanted to ride the attraction then the wait time would be exactly the same without FP? Same number of people wanting to ride and same capacity = same standby wait time. Does FP magically add people to the queue so less get through the ride? No. The long standby waits would be just as long without FP. It'd take just as long for that many people to get on and off ride. And you keep forgetting - anyone who has FP got there before you, they are not cutting in line, they had to physically arrive at that attraction before you! So, put all of them in line, ahead of you, and you've got yourself the same exact line. You're just not happy that you're further in the back of it. And tourists not knowing about FP? Whatever. Do the sprint to Soarin in the morning at Epcot and become educated yourself. Guests more then aptly understand how the system works.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "No. The long standby waits would be just as long without FP. It'd take just as long for that many people to get on and off ride." Yes, they would. However, they would also move much faster. If everybody waited in line together, the line would be constantly moving. What makes a line feel like it's really slow is when it stops for a long time. I don't think that the waits for Star Tours and the Haunted Mansion Holiday (I think the normal waits are a little less) are all that different, but with ST, you feel like you're wasting your life away waiting in there. You move 10 feet and then stop for 4 minutes, then move another 10 feet. Even though the attraction has a pretty good hourly throughput, it's still painfully dull to wait in line for it, and it has one of the better waiting areas. Stopped lines just make everything seem a lot worse. Also, as has been discussed to no end, FP puts more people out in the walkways. This makes it generally more difficult and less enjoyable to try to walk from one attraction to another, whether or not you have a FP in your hand. FP's also allow you to be in two lines at one time, which I would argue makes the lines for non-FP attractions longer than they would be otherwise. By being in two places at once, in a way, you definately make lines longer. I don't know whether it's a significant difference (and I assume it probably would be), but it's something to consider. FP doesn't just make problems for FP attractions, it creates them for the whole park.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "Does FP magically add people to the queue so less get through the ride?" No, and no one is arguing that FP makes the lines longer. But what it does do is make the stand-by queue SEEM longer to the people standing there. In the old days, you would walk up to a queue, get in the end of the line and know that only the people physically ahead of you would get on the ride faster. Now, you really don't have any way of knowing how many FastPass people will show up at any given time. So, your wait could be the posted 20 minutes, or it could be 60 minutes depending on how many FastPass people decide to show back up. And that doesn't even take into account the added perception that you're not moving anywhere. Queues that used to flow smoothly can now backup and stay still for long periods of time - and this can cause the perception of a longer line. Look, I can think of dozens of negatives about the FastPass system. The only real positive is that a small number of park guests who know how to use the system well will get on more rides. Everyone else won't -- and I don't think Disney should be structuring their parks to cater to that group.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA First of all, great posts. ChiMike and magnet -- totally agree with where you are on the subject. <For me, I sure miss lining up in BTMR's queue on a spring night that is slightly hazy. Looking out the window and multiple trains cycling around the mountain. Taking it all in and enjoying the anticipation. Walking at a constant pace through a 25 min. wait that everyone accepted as the most fair way to handle "first come, first serve"> Boy Howdy, isn't that true, ChiMike... And at Disneyland, we found that we couldn't really do that anymore. Back in the day, the late afternoon would typically see a nice, short line at Big Thunder. Not so much now. With FastPass in place, there's always a long standby line. Same with Autopia. Autopia for cryin' out loud! Back in the day, you could get to Autopia at around 4:00, wait 15 minutes and ride it. With FastPass, at 4:00, all the FastPass vouchers were gone and the only other option was to wait in a 45 minute standby line. For Autopia! No thanks... And sorry people, but FastPass does make the parks feel more crowded. All those people who are reserving a spot in line with a FastPass are now in the walkways -- running to the next FastPass machine, I guess, or just milling about waiting for their FastPass to greenlight. Overall, it's that frenetic, high-strung pace of Disneyland that's kept me away. FastPass on the surface seems like it's helping you get on more rides. But it alo increases anxiety for guests -- makes them hurry, and then other guests pick up on that vibe, and the whole park just becomes a-buzz with this weird chicken-with-your-head-cut-off energy -- like running around the mall 2 days before Christmas. Not my idea of fun. But thanks. Finally, -- chew on this -- if understanding FastPass is so simple -- why don't more people do it? It's been suggested that guests who don't use FastPass are stupid. I don't think so. And...if getting more guests to understand FastPass was such a priority for Disney, and they really want more people to 'get it', then why not get a Cast Mamber to walk through a 60-minute stand by line occasionally and explain it to those 'stupid' guests? Fast Pass -- gets two enthusiastic 'thumbs down' from me.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "Everyone else won't -- and I don't think Disney should be structuring their parks to cater to that group." Taken out of context, that sounds just like an argument for the small world changes in DL...just thought I'd throw that out there...
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "Taken out of context, that sounds just like an argument for the small world changes in DL...just thought I'd throw that out there..." Funny you should say that - that thought actually crossed my mind when I was typing that. But if we consider that for almost 50 years Disneyland was run without cartoon characters everywhere, and people seemed to really enjoy it, I would argue that the vast majority has already spoken on that issue!!
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "Back in the day, the late afternoon would typically see a nice, short line at Big Thunder. Not so much now." It used to be like that at the Magic Kingdom too. There was a time when you could actually walk-on alot of rides if you stayed late. It's just not that way anymore - and I miss those days. Visiting the parks was much more relaxing and pleasant then.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA <Visiting the parks was much more relaxing and pleasant then.> Yep. But like many other aspects of the parks, today, I feel like I'm in the minority.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Back in the day, the late afternoon would typically see a nice, short line at Big Thunder. Not so much now>> This is worth a look; DL wasn't as crowded in the early 80's or 90's: <a href="http://www.scottware.com.au/theme/feature/atend_disparks.htm" target="_blank">http://www.scottware.com.au/th...arks.htm</a>
