Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA <I think you're missing Jim's point. Jim, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but what I think you're trying to get at is that Disney doesn't educate those guests because they NEED them to stand in that queue. FastPass doesn't function properly unless some guests are willing to "stand by". As I've already said countless times on this thread, if everyone gets a FastPass, then the system is no different than if there wasn't any FastPass at all.> Yes, plpeters70, that's what I'm suggesting. Thanks for writing it more succinctly than I did.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost It's a moot point anyway because what Disney lacks in increased education of FP they supplement by limiting the number of FP's available. Therefore, no matter how hard you try there will always be a lengthy standby line. Even though it has been stated incorrectly about a zillion times, everyone does not have the opportunity to get a FP. One should stop using that as an argument. It just isn't so! If everyone going to that ride arrived at the kiosk at exactly the same time there would still not be enough available for everyone to get one. Also stated is the truth that FP doesn't work unless it is a minority. Otherwise, the FP line would go slow and the standby line would be empty. In spite of the longer lines, many times I will just go in the standby line because, I didn't want to waste my whole day running back and forth across the parks to get a FP and since I am right here anyway, by the time I get the pass, go to other places and walk back, for my time, I will have already been on the ride and on to the next one. Anyone that thinks they are really saving huge amounts of time by using FP do not keep a very accurate records of it or value their time much. Just because you are not standing in an actual line doesn't mean that you aren't spending time in the process, most of it running back and forth across the parks. My problem is not with FP itself, but, with the bad feelings that it creates even for those that choose to be in standby. Back when FP first came into existence I had written an e-mail to Disney just stating my concern over the anger I had witnessed in the line. They called me back, at home, and spoke with me for over an hour. They asked my why I thought it a bad idea and I told them. Realizing that they were kind of stuck with it now, I suggested that if they were going to keep the system, at least hide the FP line so that the others in standby did not have to witness the reason why they were standing there forever. Still the argument goes on and on and on and on.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost As a final point, let me say that I use FP on occasion, but, I still hate the overall negative feeling that it has brought to the general public (guest). I fear that it will eventually catch up with the parks and cause a decline in their popularity. I hope I am wrong. Sorry, I meant to have this with my last post.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<I fear that it will eventually catch up with the parks and cause a decline in their popularity>> You think people will decide to stop visiting Disney because of FP?! I don't.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 To the anti FP crowd, do you oppose reservations for WDW sitdown dining?<< Obviously because how dare someone call 60 days in advance and reserve a spot in the restaurant. Why don't all guests get equal access to all restaurants, those that call 60 days in advance have an advantage over those that show up minutes before when they want to eat.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>To the anti FP crowd, do you oppose reservations for WDW sitdown dining?<<< No. The cost of dinner in World Showcase is not included in my admission to EPCOT. Therefore, dining reservations are an entirely separate matter from FastPass.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA <To the anti FP crowd, do you oppose reservations for WDW sitdown dining?> No. Do you?
Originally Posted By barboy If one needs reservations 4 months out, then yes, I do oppose the system. 4 months or longer just for dining is asinine. I may not even be alive in 4 months so having to plan something as trivial as 1 Disney meal that far away is beyond absurd. Now if it were a Vic and Al(I have never been) then I can understand since word has it that it is a monumental experience. But if one has to actively reserve that far in advance for Artist Point, Beaches and Cream or Mama Melrose then that is ridiculous.
Originally Posted By barboy "No. The cost of dinner in World Showcase is not included in my admission to EPCOT. Therefore, dining reservations are an entirely separate matter from FastPass." I do see, in principle, a convincing amount of overlap between FP and Disney Dining Reservations. Both: 1) operate on a fixed/finite number of capacity or throughput 2) can be easily availed to any guest who actively pursues them. 3) are a hot or desired instrument. 4) have time constraints for redemption 5) leave some guests resentful 6) are free to use
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost What is with you folks. If you want to use FP then use it. I believe I said that even I do. That doesn't mean that I have to like it or that I think it is generally a good thing. It is good for you, fine! However, too compare FP with dinner reservations is beyond any logical reference. It's not comparing Apples to Oranges, it's like comparing water fountains to jet planes. There is absolutely no relevance between the two. I have made my statement as to why I am against FP, and like yourselves, no one has offered me a compelling enough reason to change my mind. If I am wrong, so be it. I don't expect to convince anyone to convert to my thinking. Let's just keep the subject logical. Time will tell. If FP is still in place 10 years from now and visitors have continued to increase it will still be there for you to use. If not, oh well, it was nice for a few while it lasted.
Originally Posted By barboy Getting a little hot under the collar there Goof? "too compare FP with dinner reservations is beyond any logical reference" I don't see it that way; I came up with 6 important features common to both.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>I do see, in principle, a convincing amount of overlap between FP and Disney Dining Reservations. Both: 1) operate on a fixed/finite number of capacity or throughput 2) can be easily availed to any guest who actively pursues them. 3) are a hot or desired instrument. 4) have time constraints for redemption 5) leave some guests resentful 6) are free to use<<< LOL! Barboy, you have inspired me! Check this out: I also see a convincing amount of overlap between FP and Disney restrooms. Both: 1) operate on a fixed/finite number of capacity or throughput. 2) can be easily availed to any guest who actively pursues them. 3) are hot or desired instruments. (When you gotta go...) 4) have time constraints for redemption. (Hey, you don't want to do it in your pants!) 5) leave some guests resentful. (just ask the ladies in line watching the men stroll in and out) 6) are free to use. (Thankfully! Geesh.) So, FastPasses are like Disney toilets. I don't have any problems with Disney's toilets or ADRs, but I do with FastPasses. That's probably because your list doesn't really address the correct set of issues with FastPasses.
Originally Posted By barboy "because your list doesn't really address the correct set of issues with FastPasses." Which is.....? and a toilets are not considered extra perks like FP or Dining reservations--- they are necessary features only, which neither encourage nor discourage attendance. And you list did miss on #1 and #5 but you were correct about the other 4.
Originally Posted By mousermerf Magnet - though you're obviously denying how time and space functions on the matter as well as all known forms of reality: People who have FP had to arrive at the attraction first. They had to be there to get the FP. They got there before you. Stop denying reality and stop saying they arrive after you, they return after you after having been there once. They got there first. They are not cutting in line.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>"because your list doesn't really address the correct set of issues with FastPasses." Which is.....?<<< Here it is: You cannot optimize the operation of more than one queue at a time for any single attraction. The maximum benefit of a queue's operating design (virtual or standby) can only be achieved by making it the exclusive queue of the attraction. It is only possible to minimize the average wait time for EVERY guest by having them ALL wait in the same queue. FastPass is a failure because it is a two queue solution. The only way to perfect the virtual queue is to force everyone to use it, and this is undesirable because it limits rather than enhances accessibility to attractions. >>>and a toilets are not considered extra perks like FP or Dining reservations--- they are necessary features only, which neither encourage nor discourage attendance.<<< You're taking the example much too seriously. Besides, I already told you one critical difference between ADRs and FastPass tickets more central to the comparison than any of the distinguishing similarities you listed. Again, most of those characteristics you listed could be used to compare FastPasses to Disney toilets, and it's clear that they are very different.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>Magnet - though you're obviously denying how time and space functions on the matter as well as all known forms of reality:<<< OK, I’ll march around the walls of Jericho yet again…. You said, “…if all the people in the FP queue and the standby queue wanted to ride the attraction then the wait time would be exactly the same without FP.†Then again you said, “The long standby waits would be just as long without FP.†I gave you an example clearly demonstrating that your conclusion is false. The first statement is false because with FastPass, some guests waited zero minutes and other guests waited sixty minutes, but when FastPass was closed everyone waited thirty minutes. So, neither the FastPass guests nor the standby guests were waiting the same amount of time as they did while FastPass was operating. Your second statement was also false because I showed that the wait time of the standby line was actually shortened significantly by closing FastPass. The total time required to move all the guests through the queue did not change by closing FastPass, but the wait times of all individuals DID change. Since it is the individual’s wait time that is of concern to us, something meaningful was altered. So, you are the one who should stop denying reality. >>> stop saying they arrive after you, they return after you after having been there once. They got there first. They are not cutting in line.<<< You also argue that the one who enters the FastPass queue when another enters the standby queue deserves to ride first because he visited the attraction ahead of the other one to get the ticket. However, there are two queues, not one. One’s position within a queue only makes sense within that queue. Therefore the accusation of line cutting is undefined. I’ll illustrate this for you: Let’s say that there is a ride with a standby queue, and on your way into it you take note of a stranger who is standing there outside the queue watching the people enter. You go on in and wait for one hour while the stranger leaves to ride another attraction. All of a sudden, as you step to the front of the queue after waiting one hour, the stranger comes running up the exit ramp of the ride waving a ticket, points at you, and says to the CM beside you, “I was here at the attraction before that person, and I demand to ride before him.†Would he be allowed on the ride? Of course not, because your rank in the standby queue is determined by how long you have been continuously present and waiting at the attraction, not by holding a special entrance ticket. OK, let’s go back and do this scene over again. Now you’re going into the FastPass queue for the ride and this time the same stranger follows you directly up the queue and when you get to the CM at the loading ramp the stranger says, “I was standing here at this ride for one hour before this person showed up, so I demand to ride before him.†Would he be allowed on the ride? Of course not, because your rank in FastPass is determined by when you logged into a virtual queue and received a special ticket, neither of which the stranger did. So you can’t compare the figure of merit for one queue to that of another. Your argument is comparing apples to oranges. Also, what happens to your argument if the FastPass machines were located somewhere far away from the ride pavilion? Then you actually may not be arriving at the ride before the standby rider did. See, you picked something arbitrary (the location of the FastPass dispensers), coupled it with a figure of merit that only has meaning for FastPass (logging into a virtual queue), and assigned it universal significance for both queues. There is no coherence or sense to what you argue. You try to apply a rule (first come, first served) that has a distinctly different meaning in both queues and say that its meaning in one queue should apply to the other. So, the issue has nothing to do with line cutting. The emphasis on BEFORE and AFTER in my example was to mark the relative simultaneity of events for the purposes of calculating the wait costs standby guests were forced to endure by the implementation of FastPass. It was to help those following along realize how I was doing the calculation.
Originally Posted By barboy "On crowded days (which is nearly everyday now) you can really only hope to ride every major attraction once, and a select few twice before the end of the day. Now the numbers of FastPasses issued for a ride have to factor into a decision about whether to stand in line for it." Wouldn't it be so much easier to just rely on the posted wait times(which in my experience have been very trustworthy)than to do some personal calculation of how many FP's are outstanding to decide whether or not to ride. On your opening gripe you never really addressed what I think is the most important question: did you wait longer than the posted time? And if "yes" then how much longer? What I'm getting at here is that if the posted time showed 75 minutes and you actually waited 67 even though you were avalanched with FPers then I really can't get behind your grievance but if you waited 90 then I hear you-- that's not cool especially if you were scheduled to meet family or party members and this extra queing time made you late.
Originally Posted By magnet Barboy, thanks for your post. You're right, I didn't state the exact numbers in my first post, but I did answer that later when I was asked directly. I can't remember the number of the post now -- it was a while back. The posted wait time for standby was 30 minutes, but I waited for 60 minutes. Also, I understand your gripe about dining reservations. Disney does have some unique dining experiences, and it is annoying to have to schedule them four to six months in advance. I've been trying to get in to Le Cellier since July 2005, and still haven't made it. I just don't have my vacations planned that far in advance.
