Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<If it takes 60 minutes to move 10 people through the ride, then each rider averages a wait of 6 minutes. If we use FastPass to erase the queue wait time of half of those people, then the remaining 5 must wait an average of 12 minutes, or double the time. In both cases we have 10 people and a one hour interval. In the first case, everyone waited six minutes and in the second case 5 people walked onto the ride as they arrived and the other five waited 12 minutes each.>> Um, no. Your logic is completely faulty. The average wait time is meaningless. Regardless if there is FP or not, someone must ride first and will wait less than someone who is last in line and rides last. The only way it can be completely fair (which is what you seem to be trying to achieve) is if everyone gets to ride together, or make everyone wait the same amount of time. That is ridiculous and impossible. Let me use your example to explain: The ride has an hourly capacity of 10 riders/hour. If the ride can only accomodate one rider at a time, then it takes six minutes for a rider to complete it before another rider can do so. If there was no FP, the first rider in line does not wait at all, the second rider waits six minutes, the third 12, the fourth 18, and so on. With FP, if 50% of the queue is devoted to FP, even if all five FP holders show up at the same time, someone must stilll ride first. So the first guy waits zero, the second waits six minutes, the third waits 12, and so on. What about the other five in the stand-by queue? They wait the same amount of time as in the non-FP example. The difference is, the other five riders got in line first by virtue of a virtual wait through FP. The sixth, non-FP rider still waits 30 minutes to ride, the seventh 36, the eighth 42, and so on, until everyone has ridden.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Although it is a part of the equation, the length of the line is not the real danger here. There used to be some long lines before fastpass. The issue is that, justified or not, people get upset about seeing those go ahead. It really doesn't matter what the reason is. It is just a normal human reaction to feel that one is less important when others can go ahead. Human nature isn't always connected with logic. So it is not whether or not I spend 10 more minutes in line, it is how I feel about spending that time. The carries over to their general feeling of joy vs. frustration with the Disney experience. If you would, please stop using the "well, everyone can get one" speech. I think we have already established that NOT everyone can get one no matter how well educated, Disney savvy or determined they are. And we have established that ad nauseum.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<The issue is that, justified or not, people get upset about seeing those go ahead. It really doesn't matter what the reason is. It is just a normal human reaction to feel that one is less important when others can go ahead.>> That's it in a nutshell. <<I think we have already established that NOT everyone can get one no matter how well educated, Disney savvy or determined they are>> Everyone cannot get them BUT everyone has the OPPORTUNITY to get one. It comes down to how important that attraction is to an individual.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA I agree with you Goofyernmost. There is a psychological sense of 'why are they walking past me?' -- when the FastPass holders are practically jogging past the Stand-by line. Even as a FastPass holder, I always feel a bit uncomfortable walking briskly past the Standby. It's weird. I wonder what FastPass would be like if there was a completely different queue in a completely different area. Think of the way Matterhorn at Disneyland is set up -- with two totally different queues. [for the purposes of this example, let's assume that everyone eventually converges at the loading area and is getting on a bobsled on the same track] If you had FastPass holders on the Fantasyland side, and Non-FastPass holders on the Tomorrowland side, it would seem that a configuration of that kind would keep enough separation, and cause less grumbling. For ease of design, Imagineers use the existing queue area -- but I wonder....if Big Thunder at Disneyland could be re-configured so that when you get in line either 'Stand By' or 'Fast Pass' at the current location, the design could be re-done to eliminate the FastPass Elitists streaming past all the 'brain dead losers' who use the Stand By line.
Originally Posted By barboy "Although it is a part of the equation, the length of the line is not the real danger here. There used to be some long lines before fastpass. The issue is that, justified or not, people get upset about seeing those go ahead. It really doesn't matter what the reason is. It is just a normal human reaction to feel that one is less important when others can go ahead. Human nature isn't always connected with logic. So it is not whether or not I spend 10 more minutes in line, it is how I feel about spending that time. The carries over to their general feeling of joy vs. frustration with the Disney experience." You know Goofy that is a fresh angle and I fully appreciate it--- very nice post. "If you would, please stop using the "well, everyone can get one" speech." But I probably won't stop with lines like that since I am more capitalist/isolationist/libertarian in my core beliefs.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***The issue is that, justified or not, people get upset about seeing those go ahead. It really doesn't matter what the reason is. It is just a normal human reaction to feel that one is less important when others can go ahead. Human nature isn't always connected with logic.*** I was on a business class flight to Japan once (and disembarkation can be a long process on those huge planes), and I remember getting annoyed that the first class passengers got to leave before me. Then I laughed at my impatience, since I was getting off the plane before most. I still hate sitting all the way in the back though. Tres annoying.
Originally Posted By barboy "The only way it can be completely fair (which is what you seem to be trying to achieve) is if everyone gets to ride together" And to expand on the fairness/lack of fairness issue further...... even **if** that scenario were possible(everyone rides together and same waits)it is still unfair due to seating assignments--- especially true with Soar'n(with distracting feet from above), M:Space(one's role in the 4 man pod)and Space Mnt Dl(front has unobstructed views and affords more leg room).
Originally Posted By Mr X I'd say only Universe of Energy comes reasonably close to accomplishing such a thing, assuming the park's not all that busy (I always ask out front how many actual minutes to the next show and stroll in right on time).
Originally Posted By trekkeruss ^^That's why the Unofficial guides go to the trouble of explaining the different types of ride systems and how they affect the wait times.
Originally Posted By barboy "Bolus": think large and concentrated lump or group of human mass moving along a predetermined path. yep X, those "bolus" loaders like Carosel of Progress, Universe of Energy are the closest thing in ride form. A "Semi bolus loader" type ride ,as I see it, would be HM, Test Track, M:S, Dinosaur, ToT, Soar'n, Great Movie Ride, Rockin Roller Coaster and sometimes IJ(depending on whether or not the cast fills up the film chamber and holds guests for the safety and backstory spiel and then releases the group at more or less equal intervals).
Originally Posted By MPierce I wonder if there will be any attractions in Beastly Kingdom that use Fast Pass?
Originally Posted By magnet >>>No, actually the math is a bit faulty. Think of it this way, if there were no fastpass theoretically those holding said FP's would've still arrived before you (the standby sucker) and you'd still be waiting "behind" them.<<< No, once again, the math is fine. First, I answered this exact criticism of yours about collapsing FastPass holders into the standby queue in post 118 and demonstrated that even in spite of adding them you cut the standby wait in HALF! Second, it’s impossible to create a relative ranking between a specific FastPass and standby guest. So, you cannot say who should be behind whom. >>>Um, no. Your logic is completely faulty.<<< My logic is NOT faulty. There is no room for disagreement on the FastPass issue. The mixed system is less equitable than a single virtual or standby queue. It’s the truth. It’s actual. >>> The average wait time is meaningless. Regardless if there is FP or not, someone must ride first and will wait less than someone who is last in line and rides last.<<< >>>The ride has an hourly capacity of 10 riders/hour. If the ride can only accomodate one rider at a time, then it takes six minutes for a rider to complete it before another rider can do so. If there was no FP, the first rider in line does not wait at all, the second rider waits six minutes, the third 12, the fourth 18, and so on. With FP, if 50% of the queue is devoted to FP, even if all five FP holders show up at the same time, someone must stilll ride first. So the first guy waits zero, the second waits six minutes, the third waits 12, and so on. What about the other five in the stand-by queue? They wait the same amount of time as in the non-FP example. The difference is, the other five riders got in line first by virtue of a virtual wait through FP. The sixth, non-FP rider still waits 30 minutes to ride, the seventh 36, the eighth 42, and so on, until everyone has ridden.<<< How can you post this GARBAGE? You don’t even understand the concept of a wait time. A wait time is not how much time has elapsed from park opening until you plant your butt on the ride. A wait time is how much time you are prevented from doing anything else at the park before you are allowed on the ride. It’s the time you must spend WAITING as an exclusive activity! Elapsed time in a virtual queue is VERY different from a wait time. You cannot talk about them as the same thing. Therefore, your example is ridiculous. I may be the last person of the day to get on Big Thunder Mountain, but that doesn’t mean I waited all day for it. I rode many other things as well! See, by your logic, you would say that a FastPass guest and a standby guest who happened to be boarded on the same train waited the same amount of time for it. That’s insane. The standby guest may have been prevented from doing anything else at the park for two hours while he stood in line, but the FastPass guest spent that time doing something else! >>>Everyone cannot get them BUT everyone has the OPPORTUNITY to get one. It comes down to how important that attraction is to an individual.<<< Is this mantra supposed to justify the inequity that FastPass causes? How can you support an abusive system just because you can sometimes share in the reward of the abuse? That’s sick and disgusting, and you can’t shrug off the issue with that kind of twisted reasoning.
Originally Posted By barboy "It’s the truth. It’s actual."........ but I'm not so sure that it's "satisfactual".
Originally Posted By barboy "How can you support an abusive system just because you can sometimes share in the reward of the abuse?" "That’s sick and disgusting" I think your tone is too harsh--- you sound as if this whole FP thing is like 1952 South African apartheid.
Originally Posted By dsnykid No offense Magnet, but I think you need to step back and take some perspective on this... it's a line at an amusement park, and if you don't like the lines, either don't go or suck it up and use fast pass. I know I'm being rude, but your posts are getting ridiculous... you don't like fast pass, we all know it, but I understand the logic being said by other people and your attacks on those posters are truly unjustified... take a break, watch some TV.. it's not something to get this worked up over, in my opinion.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>I think your tone is too harsh--- you sound as if this whole FP thing is like 1952 South African apartheid.<<< No. I'm not backing down. I'm not going to shutup because I'm rocking the boat. I have no personal gripe with anyone in this thread, but don't come at me with dumb arguments full of confusion. If you want to defend FastPass, then let's get it on. I've been defending myself against posts from the start of this thread. Trekkeruss, I'm sorry if "sick and disgusting" hurt your feelings, but it's not OK in my eyes to shrug this whole thing off the way you did.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>No offense Magnet, but I think you need to step back and take some perspective on this... it's a line at an amusement park, and if you don't like the lines, either don't go or suck it up and use fast pass. I know I'm being rude, but your posts are getting ridiculous... you don't like fast pass, we all know it, but I understand the logic being said by other people and your attacks on those posters are truly unjustified... take a break, watch some TV.. it's not something to get this worked up over, in my opinion.<<< See, you can come here and tell me: that I lack perspective that I should either just suck it up or stop going that my posts are ridiculous that my logic is faulty that I should just go watch TV and forget about it These are the kinds of comments I've had to combat since the beginning of this thread. However, because I lean on someone for presenting a crazy argument, I'm some kind of bad guy. Like I said. Do you want to defend FastPass? Let's go.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***There is no room for disagreement on the FastPass issue.*** Am I the only one picturing Eric Cartman in the "zeig heil" episode here?
Originally Posted By leobloom ^^I'll defend Fastpass because it's great for us locals who know how to use the system! Besides it's awesome to have an AP and show up to the park, get a FP, and just sit around people-watching until your time comes up. All hail FP!
Originally Posted By Mr X ***That’s sick and disgusting*** My friend, you have now pretty much crossed over the "reasonable discussion" zone into ridiculous ranting. It's a freakin fastpass at a freakin amusement park. Cope. Or seek help or something. There's nothing "sick" or "disgusting" about enjoying the benefits of some ride reservation thing. Geez.
