Originally Posted By ChiMike >>ChiMike I have mixed emotions about your post. On one level I am very sad that you felt like we did (hence why California and Paris will get our money), but on the other, I am glad I am not a crazy fool!<< Thanks for the reply Dave! Trust me, I am very sad for me too. Especially after paying for it. I truly hoped that it would be a very positive experience. In the last 5 years I have put my money where my fingers were and stopped coming. I then hoped time away would give me a more balanced perspective. Well, I can't ignore reality. It is obvious to me that on a macro level, WDW is milking its less-demanding guest population and devoting resources and energy into the international stage and even Anaheim. Sorry, I won't be apart of that WDW demo. I'll make more weekend getaways to Anaheim. >>I will say I really love Lights Motors Action, if the yeti worked, I would love EE, and I love Soarin'. Also, I think they improved the China Circlevision.<< LMA is just my preference, nothing more. Without a doubt those kinds of shows have a place in Disney's theme parks. I think Yeti is a huge issue and I wonder how many tourists don't even notice the problem. Regardless, I had fundemental problems with Everest even when the Yeti was working. Working at even 95% I do believe it is a great AK offering, the cut corners just really stand out to me. The China film is benign, and that might have been the intention. Like Canada, I just didn't have the same feeling that I had upon seeing both of the originals in 1982. Maybe the format has less of an impact on my 26 years later, but I don't think so. I just don't think the new films were produced with as much care and consideration as Randy Bright's films were. They certainly come off as more superficial. I fear to see what replaces the France film. >>But they have run everything into the ground so much, and cut so many corners, enough is enough. And Joe public going for 5 days every year or two do not notice it or don't care. And DVC owners try to find new ways so they don't experience buyers remorse.<< I sold my DVC 3 years ago. I am very tempted to buy the Grand California's points. However, when DVC was offered for OKW and BWV it really was a deal and a savings. And those members who purchased them have certainly come out ahead. I think the prices with the increased maintenance fees might cause me to wait for the resale market on GC DVC to save $10/$15 pp. Its not just the conditions of the parks though. There are intangibles. Vibes. Walking around the MK gives off a very different vibe then say nine years ago. I think it is very apparent. It is almost like a death by 1,000 cuts. Over time these little changes here and there add up, these changes of color or architecture here, the placement of a bench or odv cart there, the lack of mature trees, all add to an identifiable shift in atmosphere. I really do believe entertainment and odv can be blamed for a lot of this; pushing priorities that compromise the 'spaces' of the MK. Obviously the MK's plaza is the biggest example. >>For me, I am a Disney park fan, and I like quality over quantity. So DLP and DL get my love with a curiosity of WDW (probably a trip every 7 years on the cards, some tell me my timing was off).<< I hear ya. I thought of your many posts when my trip was over and as I said I am in your camp. I am never happier, on a theme park vacation, than when at DLR. That is what I'll stick to for the time being. Sounds like I won't be missing much in Orlando anyways, meanwhile Disneyland is still trending towards better and more robust additions.
Originally Posted By ChiMike <Ohh, and VBDad, I hope I finally get some credit on our past FP discussion. A while back you said that I was wrong in my statement of fairness. Now with Birthday FP being the first tiny step in tiered levels of FP use I hope you see the slippery slope I tried to point out two years ago. < I don't remember the exact discussion as there were so many, but I still believe FP in it's current state is fair, everyone has a fair shot to arrive in the AM.<< If I remember correctly ... We had about an 80 post discussion and my over-riding statement was that FP is not good for park operations nor the guest. It does not serve its initial stated goal and is more trouble and cost than benefit. I also stated that as the system was run with inconsistant enforcement of the rules and with peak times not calculated into the formulas that it was not a fair system. You took much of what I said into contention and focused more on how it personally benefits your trips with having to come to the parks in June with your family after school lets out. That it helps you. I asked for you to look at the greater good and see the macro effects. You committed to me that as soon as extra FP benefits were given to select guests you would then come around to my thinking. Well, VB, that day is here! Seriously, both you and I, and many others, benefit greatly from using the FP system, to the detriment of some stranger out there. Typically, us knowing the system and its various installations forwards and backwards allows us to take priority away from the guests who might be new to the parks and/or the FP system. I have always contended that this was, ideally operated, still fair but that Disney had greater plans for the system which were not fair. The only difference between us is that I use the system begrudgenly wishing it would go away and you stated that you would never want to go back to waiting in line pre-1999. I did highlight that going back pre-1999 guarenteed an even fairer system. Of course, most people would hear nothing of that. >>however do agree that th birthday FP precedent I do not like - and I also previosuly stated I hated being able to 'pay for the privilege ' ala Uni or Six Flags. I think that is the wrong message.<< Good to hear, but you better get used to the idea and message. And I have a feeling, and that's all it is, that DVC has become WAY too bloated for Disney to give you guys (who, without debate, have a reputation for wating to be treated as 'special') the same level of perks they will bestow on the high rollers at the deluxes. It will be quite amusing to see if that day comes and to see the outcry of how UNFAIR the new FP system is, an outcry by the hundreds of people who have been defending its fairness in Disney cyberspace. >>refresh me if I am off base here.<< You are not off base at all. Hope I explained myself better.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>If I remember correctly ... We had about an 80 post discussion and my over-riding statement was that FP is not good for park operations nor the guest.<<< Nothing showed this better than when they were testing fast pass at Crush in WDSP this August. the day without FP, waits for Cars were about 20 min, 20 for the Tram Tour, 10 for the carpets and ToT 30 min. The day they tested FP, the crowd levels felt the same at the entrance, the waits for RNRC on the other side of the park. But standby jumped from 1 hour to 2.5, carpets 50min, Tram tour and ToT and hour. And the park had a grumpy vibe. I used to be on the fence for FP, but now I am convinced it is evil. the ironic thing is Sarah queued for 20min to get FPs for Crush, and in that time the window for FPs jumped 3.5 hours. we didn't use them in the end because we had dining reservations we made way in advance, and as a family, we were not going to spend 2.5 hours in standby for something the whole family could not do. FP is evil.
Originally Posted By CMDad <<I've learned mostly about it when it WAS mostly an amusement park region. Through a series of _old_ photos and write ups.>> In its heyday, though it went on for miles and miles, the amusement parks in Coney Island were along a single street (Surf Avenue), and the majority of Coney Island was, as it is now, residential. <<But _now_ that I have taken a closer look at it's more recent history ... it just makes me wonder why such a huge city like New York City is without some modern, and clean amusement park zone.>> Interesting fact - did you knowthat for a couple of years - in NYC itself (the Bronx) we actually not only had A theme park, but one designed by folks who were prominent designers of Disneyland itself? (Van France among others) In fact, having been to DL before going to Freedomland, you could see many things that were identical to DL. The park only lasted a few years. Steeplechase was my WDW in my youth. The last remaining major gated park in Coney Island. <<The nearest is a Six Flags park in New Jersey. Which is a pretty far car drive from Manhattan.>> Not really ... about a half hour from my house - I live in Staten Island which is NYC. From Manhattan ... about 70 minutes.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 Gee, ChiMike almost makes me think I should feel guilty for enjoying our trips to WDW. Sorry, I don't think Disney rips me off any more than the grocery store, gas stations, department stores, banks, restaurants, you name it.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Gee, ChiMike almost makes me think I should feel guilty for enjoying our trips to WDW. << Not trying to make you feel guilty, whatever floats your boat. Just trying to give my opinion on the business strategy I feel Disney is employing with WDW. This isn't something I take satisfaction in. I only started visiting DL in 1995. I have been going to WDW since 1975 - regularly. Regularly, like people go to WDW nowadays. It causes me more pain then anyone can imagine to be disappointed with WDW. To go out to Anaheim and not return to WDW to 'celebrate' my own personal history with WDW. It's not my place though, I am a customer, and I will make informed decisions that result with positive experiences. Anybody who reads my comments should not feel guilty. If they really do feel guilty, maybe they truly are not so satisfied with their own decisions.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 But I really did enjoy myself. I've been on LP for a couple years now. After reading so many posts here, I became very aprehensive about going. When we went down in May, I expected to see trash all over the place. The only time I saw trash in the wrong place was when it had been thrown TOWARD the barrel. The barrel wasn't full, some jerk just couldn't bother to dispose properly. Or bottles thrown in bodies of water. None of the CMs I encountered were less than very good. The worst thing for me was the busses could have been more frequent. But my daughter's family stayed at the same hotel we did, WL, and they never had to wait more than a minute for a bus. Timing is everything. Yeah, I'd like to see the menus expanded and not the same choices at every restaurant. I feel services everywhere are not like they use to be. I work at a school, parents are not what they use to be.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I feel services everywhere are not like they use to be. I work at a school, parents are not what they use to be.<< And that is very true. A much larger dysfunction in today's society. I am, however, optimistic towards our country and culture. I am optimistic about a better Disney park experience. You are apparently happy with your visits with Disney World and that is great. Your standards (based on your expectations and sense of value) seem to be met by your previous experience. That is great. It is good for you. It is good for Disney. One might say it is good for me as a fan of Disney; others may say your satisfaction with the current product and services is bad for a fan like me. My current negativity is based on taking into account Disney's own self-imposed standards. It is based on Disney's track-record, history, and legacy. It is based on seeing the good times. This past trip was not my first visit to WDW; I come away already having a distinct baseline in my own personal judgment. I am sure somebody who just visited WDW for the first time this afternoon came away from the experience much differently than I would. It's only natural, and there is nothing wrong with them or me. I shared my opinion on what I view as Disney's strategy and then later the merits of their current output. Basically I feel that this new celebration was no surprise and only a further distraction in the line of annual temporary celebrations in lieu of significant investment elsewhere. These celebrations, parades, and shows are a waste of investment, imo, and counter to how the parks were grown to be what they were by 1996. But executives have to protect their territory and paychecks. Can you imagine if Walt had placed this much emphasis on annual promotions to push Disneyland from 1955-1967?! Look at the additions to the park, especially in the late 50’s. It’s staggering. Anyways, this is now a mature ‘product’ and I rant... Again, there is nothing wrong with you enjoying Disney World or having a different view than I do. I share what I will, and I hope folks can take something away from it. I certainly take away others' opinions on what they like or dislike.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 ^^^I totally understand your thinking and can agree in many ways. And thank you for not saying my standards are low. I turn to WDW as a return to my childhood and an escape from my yucky life. I want no part of thrill rides, my daughter and her daughters love them, we can be in the same area, doing our own things and get together later to discuss our fun.. We're all happy, that's a good vacation. If I went several times a year, I'm sure I would see things differently and even see things I don't notice because I'm too busy enjoying myself.
Originally Posted By danyoung >After reading so many posts here, I became very aprehensive about going.< I had the same experience years ago, when I first started reading Al Lutz. I went to DL expecting the worst, and it was the same incredible experience I've always had. One of the many things I like about ChiMike is that he's not afraid to put out his opinions, but he also respects others if they disagree with him. He's in a down cycle right now, and that's just fine. It won't in the least detract from my fun in the World in 3 weeks and 4 days (not that I'm counting). . .
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I have always contended that this was, ideally operated, still fair but that Disney had greater plans for the system which were not fair. The only difference between us is that I use the system begrudgenly wishing it would go away and you stated that you would never want to go back to waiting in line pre-1999. < was trying to remember all the 'players' stances in the discussions - I am glad to see you do agree, ideally operated it was fair( some lobbied heavily that it was not) - and I did say I would support no caste system of alloting FP's based on $ or anything other than first come -first served. So yes I disagree with the birthday use - and although I would benefit, I would disagree with giving it to DVC members only for the same reason. I admit the pre 1999 stand by lines in summer are not something I would want to go back to with a smile on my face however.
Originally Posted By itsme Quick question just out of curiosity, How many of the people here that are down on what a trip to the Orlando parks brings to them have kids{and do they go to the parks with you}, a biz degree or run a large company that deals with the public at large?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I have 2 kids (age 5 and 3), I have post MBA qualifications, I was in the top 200 leaders of a $4.4bn multinational service company, and now run a government advisory firm. Go to DL, DLP and TDL, then compare to WDW, or even compare WDW to itself.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo after 300+ times in DL trips to WDW every 7 years or so, 50 trips to DLP And numerous travels around the globe, coupled with experience of running a number of front line services, this is why I get really angry at WDW or the fans who justify the slides. Also I am not willing to wait and see. With the approvals processes I have to go through in my discipline, I know before the senior managers approve the capital and the resources, everyone has a very clear idea of what will be achieved including issues, risks, benefits and dis-benefits. This is why I am so vocal as early as possible.
Originally Posted By danyoung itsme, I'm curious why you asked that, and what the point was behind it.
Originally Posted By itsme Just curiosity more then anything, Though I will admit part is that it does fascinate me that the adults without children {which i was one who also went a lot before my wife and I had kids} that go to a family oriented resort that Imo is one that gears itself more towards parents with children are the ones who usually seem to complain the most about changes that are made or not made that they feel would make the place better to them. Also to see if those same people have any first hand knowledge of business and the challenges of what it may take to keep people coming back to a busines, especially when times make people tight as far as money spending on pleasures like a family vacation to a Disney area resort. I'm not looking to flame anyone on the answers, I used to be much more active on this site though its a been a few years, some may remember me that I'm not really that way but that really doesn't matter. Though I stopped posting regularly I still check in to see whats new and what people are saying around the time when I plan my next trip. After looking around the last few weeks there seems to be a larger then usual amount of posts this time from people that are un-happy with Disney and the direction they are taking with the parks. I'm not a Disney apologist who thinks that everything is always great no matter what they do but I'm just curious to see a little background on some of the people that are jumping on them for something like this announcement of next years theme as if they themselves already know its a bad business decision and there were other things that they needed to do at this time.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Personnally I do not mind the Birthday thing so much. But I would prefer a return of the Disney quality of cleanliness and services, and investments in entertainment and attractions. Disney never really gained their reputation because of marketing, it was quality and attention to detail that turned heads.
Originally Posted By danyoung >Also to see if those same people have any first hand knowledge of business and the challenges of what it may take to keep people coming back to a busines...< I've always wondered if this might work the other way around, especially if someone is involved with a large business that's well run. They'd tend to be harsher on Disney and expect more from them as a company, I'd think.
Originally Posted By leobloom Too bad the big announcement wasn't "Space Mountain's getting refurbished!" Instead, "Free day at a park with a Space Mountain that's falling apart!"
