Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Eh. The media has reported this story as much as the others I've seen.<< Reported yes, but with a sympathetic tint.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka Really? I've seen this story covered on tv and read at least 2 articles about it and I didn't sense any sort of sympathetic tint.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I didn't sense any sort of sympathetic tint<< Try adjusting the contrast on your set.
Originally Posted By ecdc Count me in as thinking these cabbies need to get over themselves. They are more than welcome to get a job somewhere else where they don't have to interact with people who don't think like them. Also, I haven't seen any coverage of this story, but I have detected a definite sense that it's open season on Evangelicals (all too often, with good reason) and Catholics, but better leave Jews and Muslims alone or be labeled a bigot. I'm firmly with Bill Maher on this one: Islamic culture in much of the Middle East isn't just a quaint, different sort of culture we need to respect. Freedom is better than oppression, religious equality is better, gender equality is essential, and so on. In our rush to be tolerant, some people forget that. Cabbies shouldn't be allowed to do this if there is government regulation involved in their industry. If there was a way for them to run a cab without oversight, then it would be their right to refuse service. But I'd hope there would be such outrage that they'd go out of business immediately.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Also, I haven't seen any coverage of this story, but I have detected a definite sense that it's open season on Evangelicals (all too often, with good reason) and Catholics, but better leave Jews and Muslims alone or be labeled a bigot.<< Bingo! Remember the editorial cartoons critical of Islam published in Denmark? And how the US mainstream media declined to publish them out of "respect" to Islam? Funny how they never self censor themselves when it comes to critical editorials or cartoons that criticize Evangelicals or Catholics. Maybe its because they know that there are no militant Christians who will murder them for their actions (as Theo Van Gogh was murdered).
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka <<And how the US mainstream media declined to publish them out of "respect" to Islam?>> I remember them deciding not to publish them so that they wouldn't have any US riots on their hands.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<Remember the editorial cartoons critical of Islam published in Denmark? And how the US mainstream media declined to publish them out of "respect" to Islam? >> A) Those cartoons were not just "critical" of Islam. They were specifically designed to be blasphemous, offensive, controversial. That was their whole point. "Look, we don't have to respect your religious wishes that your prophet not be portrayed. IN YOUR FACE, Muslims!" B) I veiwed them all on US-based mainstream media, thank you very much. <<Funny how they never self censor themselves when it comes to critical editorials or cartoons that criticize Evangelicals or Catholics.>> How do you know that no cartoons or comments have been suppressed in US media because they've been judged to be potentially offensive to some readers? My guess is that comments critical of the institution of Christianity are suppressed much more frequently by local and national media than those of any other belief system. Can't upset the majority of subscribers, can we? You post smacks of martyrdom, fkurucz. Evangelicals and the Catholic Church have both committed plenty of criticism-worthy actions within the past few years. Are you suggesting that that it is un-American or unfair or un-allowable to discuss the hypocrisy of their actions?
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>Look, we don't have to respect your religious wishes that your prophet not be portrayed<<< And why should we? I'm not a muslim, and I couldn't care less about Muhamad. Why should I consider anything THEY believe to be sacred? If I drew a picture of Muhamad, I'd be a blasphemer in their eyes. Why should I care? Those beliefs mean nothing to me. (unless you bring up the threat of violence, which is, still I believe, illegal)
Originally Posted By ecdc >>And why should we?<< That's really the point, isn't is. Those faiths that are supposed to be "respected" really only amount to popularity contests or are those faiths that garner enough political correctness to be respected. One person's religion is another's superstition. It seems to me that you either have to say it's all ok to make fun of, or none of it is. You can't say, "You have to respect Islam and Judaism, but go right ahead and mock Scientology and Catholicism." People look at Scientology and say "That's wacky" (and they're right by the way, not to mention a fraud...but I digress). But the only reason Christianity isn't seen as wacky is because it's been around longer. Age has made it more acceptable and has also given it plenty of time to plug the logical and theological leaks in the ship. But the idea that a god has to die to save everybody? That's wacky, my friends. If you want the right to be critical of other faiths, then you have to accept that others can be critical of yours - without resorting to riots in the streets when you don't like what they say. And yes, that means you have to tolerate someone trying to goad you, whether it's by drawing a cartoon of Mohammed or submerging a crucifix in urine and snapping a photo. A few people I know sure had a good laugh when South Park mocked Scientology. But when President Bush defecated on Jesus on the show (or was it the other way around...I forget), suddenly they were outraged. The irony was, naturally, lost on them.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>It seems to me that you either have to say it's all ok to make fun of, or none of it is.<<< <---Stands and applauds. Another point about this "respect their religion" thing. Personally, I think I'm a respectful guy, and I wouldn't intentionally try to slam someone elses faith (sure, we have debates online and all that, but those are voluntary discussions so I consider my honest views to be fair game). If a muslim came into my house, I wouldn't intentionally mock their faith or anything. But consider this... What if a great artist was INSPIRED to paint a picture of Muhamad? Should it be censored? Sure, you could start the argument that "it's different" and "the artist wasn't trying to piss them off" or whatever. But the religious extremist side of the Muslim population would still want to kill him. Sorry, but respect goes both ways.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka I don't think any of us are saying that it's okay to mock one group but not another (although I'm sure some of us believe it's not okay to mock any religion at all). It's just that if you mock Islam, people might riot and people might get hurt. I wouldn't want to be responsible for that in any way, shape, or form.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>A) Those cartoons were not just "critical" of Islam. They were specifically designed to be blasphemous, offensive, controversial. That was their whole point.<< I have yet to see similar self restraint when it comes to Christianity. After all, the Discovery Channel is going to air a "documentary" tat claims to prove that the Resurrection was a fraud. That seems pretty "blasphemous" to me. But I suppose tha t since they know they don't have to worry about any Christian Fatwas, that they can go ahead. >>Are you suggesting that that it is un-American or unfair or un-allowable to discuss the hypocrisy of their actions?<< Not at all. I just find it interesting how Islam gets a pass when it comes to these matters.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I remember them deciding not to publish them so that they wouldn't have any US riots on their hands.<< Yes, that was the real reason. But I recall them saying that they wouldn't publish out of "respect". I guess that sounds more noble than saying "we're afraid they'll slit our throats".
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>What if a great artist was INSPIRED to paint a picture of Muhamad? Should it be censored?<< Exactly. Muslims expect us to conform to Sharia law even though we are not Muslims. It would like if a Catholic Bishop expected the state to enforce Canon law. Meanwhile, the "bold" media cowers in fear that it might offend Muslims.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<It would like if a Catholic Bishop expected the state to enforce Canon law.>> Funny. That's EXACTLY what's happening in my state. Well, not exactly, I guess. I mean, it's not like it's just one Bishop. It's the whole church. And it's not like the church is just hoping the state will enforce their law. They've paid over one million dollars to make sure it happens.
Originally Posted By Mr X Money talks. Maybe that's the key...the Catholic church has deep pockets, after all. They don't HAVE to riot and kill, just bribe.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<It seems to me that you either have to say it's all ok to make fun of, or none of it is.>> I'm with Mr X and mele insofar as I would never "mock" anyone's faith. I happen to belief that faith is baseless superstition -- whether it be Islam, Christianity, Hindu, Wicca, or whatever. I think that ALL religion is baseless supersition. But I respect believers enough that I would not go out of my way to say, "You're wrong." Except... Christians in this country are (successfully) attempting to impose their heads-up-their-butts beliefs on the rest of us. Evangelicals send out impassioned and urgent communications to their faithful. In those "newsletters," the businessmen masquerading as enlightened religious leaders knowlingly publish untrue slurs against gay people in a (successful) attempt to rally the gullible faithful. Simultaneously, the Catholic Church has been quietly funding deliberately deceptive ad campaigns in an effort to ensure that gay couples be denied any possible partner benefits. Would I "mock" someone's beliefs? No. Would I reactively stand up and point out that I should not be denied my rights because of someone else's ridiculous superstitious beliefs? Yes.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Christians in this country" They all do this. You don't think the Moslems don't do the same thing? Of course they do. So do the Jews in Israel. Don't pick out the Christians as doing something that every other religion does as well.
