Originally Posted By RoadTrip The situation as described is unimaginable and extremely stupid on the part of Disney as far as I'm concerned. If the family continued to visit Disney parks and stay at Disney resorts then maybe Disney made the right call on this financially, though certainly not morally. Personally, if it were me, I would hold a grudge. Although I would be unable to resist visiting the Disney parks, I would never spend another dime at a Disney owned resort. The Swan or Dolphin would become my new Disney "home".
Originally Posted By trekkeruss Number one, thank you wormy for writing something actually relating to post #1, and that we can sink our teeth into. Number two, if it indeed happens as you say, that's pretty sad. Number three, I don't know what else to say. What can anyone possibly do about it, other than get a bunch of folks in the same boat to file a class-action lawsuit?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I believe that birdsNworms has accurately presented the story as it was told to him. One thing that seemed odd to me while I read it, and still seems odd, is... <<On-property guests have a pleasant stay at WDW until the last night of their vacation when they dine at one of the resort's highest profile restaurants. Shortly after a pleasant dining experience, multiple members of the family become acutely ill. Shaking, vomiting, convulsing. EMS is brought to the room at Disney's direction and by necessity. One member requires hospitalization for food poisoning which was traced by the facility and TWDC to a meat (from a menu item) that had not been properly refrigerated, or refrigerated at all. The family is very understanding as the Disney representatives express 'sincere regret' over an "inexcusable" oversight on the part of the kitchen staff.>> Usually investigations into food borne illnesses take weeks. I find it rather amazing that the source could be pinpointed within a day or two of the occurrence. That's all... it just seems very unusual.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss Another perhaps unusual thing is there is no mention of anyone else getting sick. I would think such an instance of food poisoning would effect a group beyond the one family.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 >Long-term, the loyal and informed customer costs you (since someone mentioned it on another thread, to those folks, think NPV of cutting the line or keeping the 'fish' on the hook). The new one is wide-eyed and willing to spend. 'Once and out' is now more than an accepted method of capturing market share, it is the King Kong of business plans being engaged. < If one and out is truly the business model you envision as being in place- please explain DVC. businesses are always looking for 'new blood' and value that as it is said it is 4 times harder to attract new business than to maintain established customers. ( although those same people also know it is much harder to get back 'lost' customers than any other business maneuver. Again, this is another 'observation' - 'speculation' in a growing list- I am still not seeing the relation to post #1. seems like a lot of criticism ( and most of us acknowledge they are due some) - without a lot of meat...sort of a vegan list.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I work foir a large faceless major corp so I know how things 'happen' in the real world- but I also believe that somewhere within the Disney Management ranks are at least some competent people ...doing th e work of those less competent - but regardless... 1/ I am an AP but live 1200 miles away - but being a DVC member /stockholder/ and member of many Disney sites from shopping to now D23- I am sure if they are actually capable of doing so ( which I question) they can tie a certain profile to me.. to have a corporate 'plan' than is set up on the basis that they cannot do enough to piss me off that they will lose business is just stupid. While there might be a few wackos within the org that would think that way, I don't believe that is the mantra for many reasons: -- adding ( not subtracting) benefits to DVC members/resorts would be one. Why do that - no need once they have your money right ? Yet OKW adds a slide to main pool - units are updated/maintained ona very good schedule ( IMHO) - benefits packages always changing - and increased forms of on line contacts and free pins / giclees etc -- random. If there biz case was to ignore us then they are executing very wrong. -- I have made calls to restaurant managers ( also emails) and have received exceptional over and abov etreatment on 'special' visits - no reason to do so as I am already bought and delivered by the definition here.. many many more examples- and small items offered comp for and never reneged. Do I believe it could happen with the parge number of guests - you bet. There are incompetent managers at all companies at all levels who make piss poor decisions. Do I believe this is a reverse lelveing of customer value as a action plan - sorry, I do not. As trippy stated - food born illnesses usually take days to just ID the cause - then tests take a few more - no one gets that done in a day, not even on TV. I could be wrong but I just get the feeling there is a part of this story we are missing - even if not intentionally.
Originally Posted By StitchMom84 <Number three, I don't know what else to say. What can anyone possibly do about it, other than get a bunch of folks in the same boat to file a class-action lawsuit?> I usually stay away from these types of discussions, because I am neither informed enough or quick-witted enough to keep in the discussion without getting my feelings all hurt ( I guess I just don't have a good cyber-thick skin yet), however, since the very beginning of this topic ( and,for a topic that many are skeptical of..many, many posts), there was something that has had me curious, and I had even considered bringing it up, but decided not too..until the above pasted portion of a previous post was made... Could it be , that perhaps this is a sort of "market research" session to see how many others might come foreward with their stories in order to maybe see what, if any interest there might be in such a thing as a class action type proceeding? Now, I don't know what dollar amount or types of things have to be involved for such lawsuits to go foreward, but just curious. And, the reason I am so curious is that a few years back, I was on a "mock jury" that was brought together by a local market research firm to get a feeling for what the outcome might be in ( what ended up being ) a rather well-known class action lawsuit against a health food chain that sold vitamins and food supplements. The whole thing begins with a cross sampling of regular people brought together and given minimal info about what the suit was about, then we had to fill out a 30 page questionaire answering what/how we felt about the info we had gotten, and how we might vote if such info was in a trial. After that, we were given more info, then had to fill out the same info, then again, and again ( over two full days ) until we were given much of what the lawsuit was all about. After the very last info session, we were put into a "jury room" in "jury formation and had to deliberate just like any jury would ( and I know this, because I have been on and been chosen for three different sessions of jury duty), and come up with a verdict at the end. We were then questioned ( I should say grilled actually, by the people that had been presenting the info to us as to how we came to our conclusion). We were paid several hundred dollars for our weekend, and sent on our way. The "jury" was brought together by one of the law firms that was invoved in the class action suit ( we never knew which side they were on) and this was a way of getting a feel for what might really happen in a real trial. I guess it used to be done frequently in these types of big, money class action trials. Now, with the internet, you can do so much of this "research" for free. BNW posts reveal a little more in subsequent posts and now if you look back to the earlier posts, some of the folks here have now changed their minds a little with more info ( which is, of course the natural..and intelligent way one should do things) I'm still not informed or thick skinned enough to really get into this topic. I leave that to you wise folks here who have been around much longer and truly know more that I ever will ( or maybe even care to ) know. I will,however, just say, that whomever within the Disney company,has come up with this shoddy ( ok, that's putting it so simply and mildy) business practice, will hopefully, in a real life world, have to answer for this type of policy/thinking and will become in the not-so-distant future, unemployed for a very, very long time! I guess I'm saying it much nicer than I'd like to, but I'm a grandma and I really shouldn't swear...especially not on the intenet with "Big Mickey" evidently watching me! I know it's possible I'm way off here, but the scenario of how the info is being fed just is vaguely familiar. BNW may be trying to get the word out in hopes of getting some other folks with valid issues to come foreward..as there is strengh in numbers...I don't know.... Just a thought........
Originally Posted By ImTempest Having worked in both insurance law and medical fields, Wormy's story is not plausible. Think back to any e-coli story you have read, and the determination time it takes to find out a source. Even then, the search is for the "primary", i.e. did the contamination occur in a kitchen, from a food handler, possibly from a field where the item was originally grown. Then, and only then, is any liability discussed, and/or possible compensation. It may be that Wormy believes this story as it was told to him. If so, he is the one that has been duped. It has lately become more frequent to point the finger at corporations for bad behavior. I can't say many cases are without merit. However, this thread is just one more little whiny fishing expedition from somebody trying to get their attorney's hand into Disney's pocket. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of it. Every time it happens, I find that same grubby little hand picking my pocket by ultimately raising the price of everything I enjoy. GET OUT. In all honesty, have you never, ever in your life gotten food poisoning? What did you get out of that, besides a 5 pound boost to your weight loss program? In all probability, you avoided that taco stand from that point on, but went to another one down the street and that's the extent of it, because in no way would you (sensible person that you are) ever assume that you contracted food poisoning because the taco shop maliciously intended to poison you and drive you away as a customer. But this is different? Because it's Disney? Well, I'm not buying what Wormy's selling.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<I will,however, just say, that whomever within the Disney company,has come up with this shoddy ( ok, that's putting it so simply and mildy) business practice, will hopefully, in a real life world, have to answer for this type of policy/thinking and will become in the not-so-distant future, unemployed for a very, very long time!>> I'm unconvinced there is an actual policy in place to dupe long-time customers. Like vbdad55, I can believe every once in awhile there is some incompetence involved that results in such actions, but beyond that, IMO it doesn't make sense.
Originally Posted By barboy ///TWDC was under no obligation to respect the judgment./// What's that all about?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<The comments relating to my writing style are understood and not taken as misplaced criticism. As a consequence of what I do, this is too often how my words come out. Admittedly, it is not the easiest read. That means, in a place like LP, I may not be articulating my point(s) in the most effective manner. I apologize for that and ask that anyone who might be able to better make a point that could be muddled here do just that.>> I'm following ... most of it, anyway. I admit some of what you have written hurts my head, but I could say the same of a lot of the drivel that often has to be waded through on fan sites (thankfully, not so much here!) And you shouldn't dumb down your comments. If people have questions, they can ask (I will) you to 'splain yourself. <<For those who may have questioned my presence on LP, although I have followed the site almost since its creation, this is not all that unlike looking over one day to find the canary in the coal mine dead in its cage. On your watch (to a large extent). Did I lose that somewhere between post #1 and 198, almost assuredly so. Still, I know there are folks -- former top Disney execs, industry people, current cast members, and others, who know exactly what I am writing about, why I am writing about it, and how incredibly important this is. Please feel free to winnow this down any way you can if you think it will help. ***Or, if you wish to simply skip over these posts, I understand that too.*** My writing voice is the one I speak with and the one that got me where I am. I fully understand it is my handicap here. In short, TWDC has incorporated the paring or elimination of certain guests as an important element of the business model that has grown from the proliferation and abuse of data mining or so-called 'targeted' marketing. Few people would ever believe that involves dumping customers, but that is precisely the goal. Long-term, the loyal and informed customer costs you (since someone mentioned it on another thread, to those folks, think NPV of cutting the line or keeping the 'fish' on the hook). The new one is wide-eyed and willing to spend. 'Once and out' is now more than an accepted method of capturing market share, it is the King Kong of business plans being engaged. >> I have articulated the same thing here many times and I am often met with resistance. But as someone who has been an APer at WDW since they first were offered -- that's 28 years of loyalty and likely the cost of nice home in a gated SoFla community BEFORE the housing bubble burst -- one might think Disney would never want to lose me. I am a proverbial whale (not body-sized, that's the typical guest on ECV with turkey leg and pin lanyard dangling), albeit in much smaller sums individually. I don't go to WDW once and drop $5-10K. Yet, not only does Disney do nothing at all to show me I am valued (as I said to some Disney 'friends' at lunch recently ...You'd have thought that they might have given all charter APer for WDW one-year free D23 membership. It would have cost them nothing and likely hooked us like (pardon the pun) worms. But nope. I also can't help but feel TDO wants nothing more than charters to either stop coming or die already because we recall Disney in 1970s and 80s. We know we're getting a vastly different, and usually lower quality, product in 2009 that is being passed off as a premium brand. That makes us more demanding. And we certainly expect Disney to nail the basics ... and they seem to frequently have trouble delivering them. Some rube from Ohio down for the first time or some family from NJ that first visited in 2003 and is back for the second or third time now are going to have a very different set of expectations. Disney knows that. And which customers are easier to deal with? Now ... which customer is more important to the 'brand'? ... I have some thoughts.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Data mining, when applied in a disciplined manner, does indeed enhance the customers' experience. Having extensive experience in the development of such programs, it is not my intent to doubt the value part of that equation. It would be counter to my own business interests. It also is not indicated to in any way single out TWDC simply for data mining, as every company looking to the future employs it to some extent. [I use it, fine-tune it, and package it in a major media environment myself.]>> So, just to be clear, do you think data mining is evil? It doesn't sound that way. Or are you just suggesting it can be used that way? (that I certainly believe, but I also know that this post will be read in Orlando and Burbank because I'm either a paranoid wackjob or I know for a FACT that Disney monitors certain sites and certain threads and certain Spirits!) <<The technology made a significant shift in the latter part of the 90s allowing for manipulation of aggregate information about customers/guests to be applied to the individual. This was done not to raise that guest's experience but to limit it based upon the statistical value of that one consumer as perceived by the company. The sole decider: those data points. Therein lies the problem. TWDC began to lead the world in the wholesale application of the technology, to the point some folks even noticed its footprints when checking into a resort or just for dinner at one of the many WDW restaurants, as there were some 'peculiar' details about them next to their reservation. >> I'm still trying to figure out if 'No Win' means they don't believe they can do anything to please me (which is bull$hit) or if it means 'No WINE' because I once had a very unpleasant experience at a WDW dining locale when the server was displeased I ordered a Coke with dinner. And that note I've often seen when they pull up my info (BTW, notice how they have made it near impossible for guests to see the screens at most locales?) when I have checked in for meals. Funny thing is most times I DO have wine with dinner. Just had one hard sell on wine when it wasn't wanted and bad service as a result and complained. Your thoughts? <<Now, many top-notch resorts and restaurants take notes about their customers [this is nothing new], but the purpose has consistently been to -- no matter how difficult the customer -- make that guest's experience a better one. TWDC had a different idea. Take the information, and use it to predict the level of product Disney has to deliver to that consumer. ***In simple terms: How far can we push this guest/this family before he/she/they will walk away?***>> Sadly, with me, pretty far. I love the Disney creative product. I have had some of the happiest moments of my life at WDW with people I love dearly. I don't like much of what is going on there, but I look at it pragmatically and realize that when the current folks in charge are long dead, the place will still be there making people happy. Now ... my concern is in what shape it will be, but that's another matter. I've basically been told by one Disney exec 'pal' that I should go elsewhere if I am unhappy with their product and my response was akin to the 'have a magical day' line used to tell off guests. Only I didn't quite use those words. So, I don't know what Disney would have to do to chase me off. But if they ever did, rest assured you'd hear about it. And not simply on a fan forum. <<Soon after that information was placed in the centralized database that frontline cast had access to, complaints came in aplenty. It was fine if TWDC wanted the hostess at your favorite restaurant to know your preference is for a booth by the wall, it was not okay for Disney to note that the guest "orders appetizers as entrees, dwells" or "adults eat from children's menu" or "left w/ dinnerware" (abbreviations replaced for clarity). Quickly, only the back of the house was allowed access to this kind of information. And, yes, this is a very mild example of what TWDC was gathering on something as everyday. as mundane, as a meal on property. >> Like my example above? <<On the surface, it may still sound relatively innocuous. But it is far from that as presently employed. >> I just want Disney to treat all guests like VIPs. That was one of their old guest service PR taglines ... and it was true. You don't ever hear that anymore because they don't do that. Anyway, I have more to say on the matter, but it is getting late and I have some work that's calling me. I am glad you have decided to stick around and would invite you to stick your POV into other discussions here because I find your viewpoint to be quite ... um ... unique.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<When I bought my initial points at the Boardwalk for $65 per point it was an OUTSTANDING value. Now that points are being sold for $120, not so much. Between the price increase and the massive discounting Disney is currently doing at its resorts, I would probably not buy in at today's cost. I still love DVC and am glad I'm a member. I also believe it will be a good value again in the future. Just not so much right now. Spirit... can you believe I'm saying that?>> Hey, Trippy, I believe in magic so I'll buy into anything? ;-) FWIW, if I had a chance to buy into DVC under early 1990s pricepoints (not to mention free tix) I probably would have. But today with so many timeshares in Orlando that can be rented by the week (often DVC) for almost nothing, it makes no sense to me why folks are buying (of course, they aren't really ... or not in the numbers people would like ... a friend just back from Anaheim said Disney was throwing in seven-night DCL cruises and a pair of PAPs to get folks to buy at the Grand Californian) ... did I digress too much?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Yes, Spirit, I understand that it is possible and has probably happened at one time or another. As for it being a regular occurrence - BS!>> I think that's exactly what I said, Nikki!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 >FWIW, if I had a chance to buy into DVC under early 1990s pricepoints (not to mention free tix) I probably would have. < boy do I wish I had this quote for reference a few years ago here -- when trippy and I were doing financial analysis galore as to why we bought into the 'evil timeshares' -- you're mellowing...age will do that
Originally Posted By Socrates BNW, when did this happen? Socrates "The unexamined life is not worth living."
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Another perhaps unusual thing is there is no mention of anyone else getting sick. I would think such an instance of food poisoning would effect a group beyond the one family.>> I have only had food poisoning once ... but it came from Disney. It actually came from an event at Disney the night before DCA's grand opening. If you don't believe me, then go track down Paul Pressler and ask him if a special 'Spirit' almost vomited on him in a Grand Californian elevator three hours after the DCA dedication. I think he'll remember. In hindsight, maybe we both should have taken that as some kind of omen about the park's future. And food poisoning is something that strikes quite quickly and powerfully and stays with you ... unlike simple contaminations that can have you ill for 2-3 hours and then you're almost 100% fine. Look at the cruise line industry. They don't wait a night before quarantining you in your cabin. Even then, sometimes you can have outbreaks were dozens and even hundreds get ill. At WDW, it isn't that simple. Let's say it affects 53 people, but out of that only 11 are staying on property, some are local, some are in transit ... it's very hard to pinpoint. In my case, I had no idea whether anyone else got sick or how many. Since I could barely crawl to the bathroom at the Grand (should have gone to ER, didn't ... and never asked Disney for anything), tracing the illness (it was a burger) wasn't a priority for me. But with healthcare professionals in this Spirit's family and with an obvious transmission source, I didn't need to wait three weeks for labs to tell me Disney's food made me violently ill. Like I said, with DCA I should have taken it as a sign ... and yeah, I do realize the story would have been better had I not kept the vomit off Paul. But it was, what it was ... a disgusting illness.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<If one and out is truly the business model you envision as being in place- please explain DVC. >> I'm hoping wormy will be back to 'splain it in corporate-speak but ... My take is that with DVC it is still same thing. You're a given. They already have your money ... and with DVCers, it's tens of thousands of dollars. If you get disenchanted with the MAGIC, so what? They'll gladly buy back your points and sell them to a new customer at a higher price point. They win whether they keep you or lose you. It may be better to lose you because you're the one who's going to bitch that the units at BW are falling apart. A newbie doesn't know any better. You're going to bitch that valet parking isn't free for you any longer. A newbie doesn't know that. <<businesses are always looking for 'new blood' and value that as it is said it is 4 times harder to attract new business than to maintain established customers. ( although those same people also know it is much harder to get back 'lost' customers than any other business maneuver.>> But Disney doesn't seem to care. Again, look at my example as a charter WDW APer. They have never done a single thing to acknowledge how loyal and important we've been in 28 years. We just get the lowest renewal rate possible, which still goes up every year (finally went over $300 in 2009). Other than that? Nothing. Not a free cruise, free hotel nights, free dinner, free cupcake, free tee, free D23 membership, free LE pin ... NOTHING. Because, frankly, Disney doesn't want any of us. They'd much rather get a new AP victim paying $489 (I believe that's the FLA resident rate, with the real price over $500) and deal with their vastly lower and easier to meet expectations.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<We are all taught to try to be fair as we are growing up. Moms and Dads teach kids to share. I try to teach my kids to do what's right even if it is not the easiest option. I encourage them that if they are going to be a friend, then be a good friend. Then something like this comes along and you realize that the world isn't fair and nobody cares. The few people who do seem to care are powerless to stop it. This thread bothers me because I don't want to acknowledge the reality of it. It is watching the fall of a childhood hero and the destuction of one of my last reserves of innocence. The world is not fair and no matter how far into the sand I stick my head I can't escape reality.>> This is one of the most poignant posts I've ever read on a Disney forum ... at least as it relates to the core issue of what kind of product is TWDC selling to its guests and why so many in the fan community are willing to defend management and mediocrity (and sometimes worse, you wouldn't believe how many folks have stood for TDO in the monorail death on other, less sane, forums). It reminds me of when children will stick their fingers in their ears and yell 'I can't hear you!!! I can't hear you!!!' There's a very tacit understanding that if someone truly understands and accepts that TWDC is often a heartless, soul sucking corporate entity that is magical only in the new ways it can take more money from people by giving less of a product that indeed apart of our collective childhood innocence dies. For me, it's largely happened in small doses over the past decade. But it has happened. I still love Disney and its parks and resorts (especially the ones not in FLA). But they've taken a few chunks of my heart and soul out by showing that, as a company they have neither. It hurts. Or did. But I accepted it and moved on. It does beat living in some pixie dusted reality. It's not 1959 ... or 1979 ... or even 1999. The world has changed, mostly not for the better ... and sadly, so has The Mouse. You can accept it without approving of it or agreeing with it. ... Or you can be that petulant little brat with the fingers in the ears, trying to shout down reality. Doesn't work.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 My take is that with DVC it is still same thing. You're a given. They already have your money ... and with DVCers, it's tens of thousands of dollars. If you get disenchanted with the MAGIC, so what? They'll gladly buy back your points and sell them to a new customer at a higher price point. ------------------ yes but totally piss off a DVC owner and they sell the points and along with it goes - participation in Disney Adventures - Cruise Line - and many of us spend heavily on other things Disney. I can tell you if they pissed me off bad enough to leave DVC - that would be it.. So I still do not buy into that for DVC - why the AP discount $100-$125 - they didn't have to - they already had my money ? Plenty of examples... I don't claim they want us treated like royalty- of course not and they still want to make money off of us - but I sure as hell do not buy into they don't care about our happiness level at all either, or even more ludirous, go out of their way to tick us off.
