Originally Posted By MPierce >> Don't feel bad Dave according to my President and his Administration I am a Terrorist because I attended an anti tax rally ( anti CNN rally ) in front of my state capitol on April 15th. << You are evil if you oppose anything from this administration. Sound familar. That's why I say he is just the second coming of the same old thing.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I'm not a commie, nor am I police hating, and I have mixed views on Mass Trasport. But yes, I do not think it is possible for someone to totally divorce themselves from ideology. To do so would be a lie, would it not? << I'm all for Mass Transport. I just don't feel that Government, even on a local bases can run it efficently. I think it is completely impossible to totally divorce yourself from ideology. I believe those beliefs can cross over on certain points, and become blurred on certain issues. However one's core beliefs should remain constant. I think Walt's vision was fantastic. I also believe I could subscribe to it. Unfortunately we don't know how it would have turned out long term. I certainly wish we could have found out on a small scale if this project was workable. The plan communities in my area are nice, but rather pricey in terms of taxes, and residence fees. The Woodlands seems to be the best example of these. They have sucessfully blended residential, and commercial areas together. However they have failed to address the issue of transportation.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> And attending a protest is everyone's democratic right. Whether it is for a sensible reason? Well that is down to each individual to decide ;-) << Concern over taxes is a more than sensible reason. After all we fought a revolution over it. I think the tea bag protests were a wonderful way to demonstrate against policies that all working Americans should be concerned about.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Some may disagree. I try to put people before money. when we are all dead and gone, money does nothing, but our legacies can do everything.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >> But I don't think anyone from Nixon to Reagan would recognize the neo-con, religious right, ignorant masses that have taken over the party now. << <<I think you are very misguided in your opinion on that one. However I would like you to look across the isle, and tell me how many stanchions of liberty, freedom. and justice you see over there.>> If you think I am enamored with either party, then you are mistaken. I do like the current Prez (the fact he can speak in coherent sentences and complete thoughts does help) and I despise the previous administration. I truly feel that men like Cheney and Ashcroft were/are evil incarnate and the Prez was just a buffoon. But if you think I have any love for the Dems, I'd put them on par with Disney execs!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<And for the record Spirit, I am only a commie if you speak to the Tea Baggers. In reality, I am a little left of centre - a liberal democrat if you will, with socialist sympathies and entreupenurial aspirations.>> I know that. Hope you're just setting the record straight for others here. But I do hope to discuss politics, Disney and/or anything with you in person in the near future!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >> Don't feel bad Dave according to my President and his Administration I am a Terrorist because I attended an anti tax rally ( anti CNN rally ) in front of my state capitol on April 15th. << <<You are evil if you oppose anything from this administration. Sound familar. That's why I say he is just the second coming of the same old thing.>> I think that's largely hyperbole being spewed by rightwing media that is bordering on inciting violence against Obama or Pelosi or anyone they disagree with. The last Prez used the Constitution to wipe his ass, yet no one on FOX was crying about losing 'my America' ... It's almost like the abortion doctor murder, where folks like Hannity and O'Reilly played a role, where you have these wackos saying 'I'm gonna put this loaded gun on the table and I'm gonna tell ya what those evil socialists in DC are doing to your America. I'm not gonna tell you what to do. But ...' It scares the hell out of me. Truly. Glenn Beck starts a show with Nazi German propaganda and music and then describes all of these things Hitler did in his rise to power ... and then he turns around and says these are the things Obama is doing (or wants to) 'but I'm not saying Obama is like Hitler' ... Really?!??! That's exactly what you're saying and your bosses love it because it's getting ratings. That scares me. Taxes? Not so much. But I don't make more than $250,000 a year ... and if I did, I would be willing to pay more than someone who makes $21,000. Yep, Commie here! (I'm thinking I shouldn't even look at LP.com this weekend!)
Originally Posted By MPierce <<You are evil if you oppose anything from this administration. Sound familar. That's why I say he is just the second coming of the same old thing.>> >> I think that's largely hyperbole being spewed by rightwing media that is bordering on inciting violence against Obama or Pelosi or anyone they disagree with. << Let's see, Unamerican for attending town hall meetings to disagree with this Presidents policies. Let's see, how about being called Brown shirts? How about accused as a whole of showing up with Swastikas. How about protestors being compared to Timothy McVeign. How about protestors at town hall meetings being compared to the Ku Klux Klan. All documented being said by those compassionate left wing liberal politians Hyperbole you say? Saying you strongly disagree with someone's policy is a far cry from calling for violent action against them.You seem to think Fox is responsible for the evils of the world. Were the numerous reports against past Presidents, and other politians policies responsible for assasinations, and assasination attempts against them. Are the numerous personal attacks on Sarah Palin, and her family the news media crying out for violence against them? Is no one allowed to speak out against a policy they disagree with? Are is it just those on the right who must remain silent? Once again you talk about Bush violating Constitutional rights. If they have been violated then why hasn't the Supreme Court stepped in. Where is Obama's voice on the evils of the Patriot act. Hell, he addresses the Nation in primetime every other night. Just where does he stand. The Government owns GM, and Chrysler. Half the banking system is in debt to the Government. They seem to be able to oust heads of corporations at will. They are making a run at controling the entire medical profession. Look out insurance company's your next. Hyperbole you say? His solutions to any problem seems to be we need to rush this through real fast because it's the humanitarian thing to do or our nation will collapse if you do not pass this now. The Messiah, the savior of our nation, is nothing but the second coming of the same old political machine we have seen to many times in the past, and hopeful people have bought into his rhetoric. There are to many GOOD Americans being vilified by our elected officals, and I'm sick of hearing it. Rather than being scared by a cable channel, you should be scared by the politians running your country.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< according to my President and his Administration I am a Terrorist because I attended an anti tax rally ( anti CNN rally ) in front of my state capitol on April 15th. >>> I think you mean to say that your radio told you that that's what the President believes.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I'm all for Mass Transport. I just don't feel that Government, even on a local bases can run it efficently.*** Do you mean the U.S. government, or any government? In Japan, a large chunk of the public railways and high speed systems were government operated for many decades. It seemed to work out okay (but it DID go into private hands and I don't know the specifics there, but recently the Japanese government isn't even running the post office any more so...).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Indeed X - and the government in France and Germany run their very efficient railways. Here in the UK, the government ran the railways up until the Thatcher regime, now they are very expensive and less reliable - free enterprise for you. And the UK outsourced the Post Office to the private sector 15 years ago. We used to get 2 deliveries a day and 1 on saturday. Now we are lucky to see the postman before 3, and whereas 1st class used to be next delivery if sent before 3, it is now a 3 day SLA. (again a state run industry going to the private sector). Now I cannot be 100% anti Outsourcing. When I used to be an exec at a multinational service company, we took on 3 failing school districts and turned them around.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Now to come back to this quickly, as we are taking the family away to Legloland as a surprise treat in a bit. It is interesting how Walt set up the Reedy Creek Improvement District as a pseudo government structure. The plan for WDW was never to be what it has become, but for it to have the MK and resort area, with the rest of the focus on the airport, the central business district, the communities, the railway infrastructure etc. Now WDW did get some of the really cool infrastructural ideas such as the Utilidoors, monorails and of course the hyacynth recycling programme for human waste was soooooooo awesome, the Scandanavian governments actually paid licence fees to use the methodolgy and it has been very successful. Although Miller ran the company in the ground, so of the ideas were used, and Eisner carried on for a litle while. To me, this is one of my MAJOR let downs by Disney focusing on Toons and Thrills. What always drew me in to the Disney dream was living on the frontier of the possible, and seeing it come to life. The Europeans don't have a clue, because they never had much exposure to anything other than the toons. And joe the plumber is in that snort the pixie dust/it's for the kids moan. I think I finally realised it is the lack of vision and an ambition to drive the frontier which means I have lost faith in Disney. Most of the things I love are the things that have always been there, and on the odd occassion, they do push the frontier and I lap it up (like with DAK). But I really think Walt was looking for a new governance model, a hybrid of communities as we know them with a spin on corporate governance. In some ways the epitome of America, but in other ways I suspect the antithesis of America too. I mean, think about it, how democratic would it have been, what civil liberties would people have? Look at the impact of the resident association and ordanances in Celebration. All interesting stuff. In France, they tried the model out with Val D'Europe, 2 miles from Disneyland PAris, with the land originally owned by Disney, the masterplanning by Disney too, and some of the main contracts such as lighting and street furnature, groundskeeping, and the management of the major mall. Over the years, Disney has sold off much of their interest, but during the Eisner/Wells years, EPCOT inspired programmes were launching. Sadly, I suspect if Walt had lived and built EPCOT, the company would have gone under. But he was a visionary who wanted to make grand changes, and the population were excited about it. Look how far we have come, regression perhaps.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I also find it very interesting how "There's a Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow" in CoP was changed to "Now is the Time" when it moved to Florida originally. A sign that as a society we were starting to regress? The cyncism of modernity starting to oppress the optimistic ideology of an earlier time? And yet when we think back to the 70's and 80's, they were far more optimistic than today. It is really irksome. So, my hypothesis is this. Walt at the time was creating a socialist structure (in communitarian terms) but with corporate sensibilities driving the change. It is a real shame that modern America cannot unite around this theme. I do think there are significant lessons to be learnt from plans of 40 years ago, rather than obfiscating the challenges of tomorrow behind a shroud of a 233 year old document or a supposedly 2000 year old book. So Epcot was either to be, if you believe the lefty loonies, a form of capitalist Darwinianism that would have had the MR Burns and Burns wannabes living in a community, hiding away from the dregs of society (check out Demolition Man for a great take on this theme), or it was an attempt to bring out the best in America (and maybe the world), which can be quite socialist in it's meaning. We will never truly know, but I think it is fun to analyse and indeed look at how these ideas impact us today and into tomorrow. I would like to think there is a great big beautiful tomorrow, and I do not think Now is the best time, but it's a small world after all, and all it takes is one little spark!
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>I would like to think there is a great big beautiful tomorrow, and I do not think Now is the best time, but it's a small world after all, and all it takes is one little spark!<<< Cute! I don't believe that now is the best time either. Unfortunately, I think the best time is behind us. That doesn't mean that I think that what we have is terrible, but the mere fact that it's a small world hinders any real forward advancement except in communication and there in lies some of the problem. Too much communication. We could at one time be optimistic when we weren't exposed quite so much to the bad things of the world. We could even, as a nation, get behind justified wars because we didn't actually witness the carnage brought on by them. There was a time when we could go to a place like WDW and be there for the entertainment, now it's to escape. And that one little spark? Well, that has been lowered in brightness by a universal feeling that there is no use in doing new things, in experimenting or developing. All that gets you is criticized or sued. I can't say that I feel that there's a great big beautiful tomorrow...I'm just constantly hoping for a non-tragic one.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 I think the thing that makes Walt's concept of EPCOT fascinating still is that it wasn't built. It allows us to think about what might have been. It is a vision of the future that realistically could never have been built and maintained. As we have seen from EPCOT Center the park, it is impossible to keep up with technology. Consider in my lifetime we went from records to 8-track tapes to cassettes to cd's to ipod in a relatively short 20 years or so. Look at how computers have changed the world. I was telling my son that when I went to college they were using an early computer registration program (he registered for all of his classes from his computer at home). I had to go to the school. Go to the gym then go from table to table give the person a class code, then they thumbed thru long boxes of computer punch cards (think voting cards with punched chads). If there was a card there was a seat. If not you had to start the whole process over (yuck). You took all your card to the computer room and handed them in (The computer took up a room the size of my living room and was SLOW). An hour later you would get a class schedule then you went to the registrar and paid them. My point is that how do you keep current with technology that moves that quickly without disrupting peoples lives. In the early 1980's Disney created a company that tried to sell both the monorail and Wedway systems to cities. I think the Houston Airport was the only one who purchased a wedway system. If they were truly the transportation systems of tomorrow we would see them everywhere. We would have seen other companies who would have created similar systems. Walt was a great visionary. But even those close to him think that he hadn't solved the multitude of problems that being THAT involved in peoples lives would have created.
Originally Posted By fkurucz << I think the tea bag protests were a wonderful way to demonstrate against policies that all working Americans should be concerned about.>> You mean like how the uber rich only pay 10% tax on their capital gains income while working stiffs pay much more on "earned income?
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>If they were truly the transportation systems of tomorrow we would see them everywhere.<<< I suppose that you have a point there, however, it might just end up being the transportation system of the day after tomorrow!
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Do you mean the U.S. government, or any government? << I only live in the USA, so that's all I feel qualified to address. I'm also certain that there are some efficent systems run by some local Governments. However I believe if you check the statistics on Government run mass transit you will find some over inflated, very inferior models. >> I do think there are significant lessons to be learnt from plans of 40 years ago, rather than obfiscating the challenges of tomorrow behind a shroud of a 233 year old document or a supposedly 2000 year old book. << I think those two works have served the vast majority of Americans well. Neither confused me about the intent of my forefathers are the destinity of the people that choose to live by these sacred documents. Did Walt have a vision of eliminating religion are changing the practice of it in anyway? If not then why bring it up. For that matter why bring up the Declaration of Independence in a discussion about EPCOT Center. I don't see the relevance. Your disdain of religion has once again raised it's ugly head in a discussion about Disney. >> You mean like how the uber rich only pay 10% tax on their capital gains income while working stiffs pay much more on "earned income? << I thought it was actually 15%, no matter. Just how much do you think is fair for the rich to pay? Do you want everybody to be middle class or poor. How many poor people have you worked for in your life? Now here's a fact. Lowering the Capital Gains Tax increased revenue to our country. Go look it up for yourself. Even the President admits that. He wants to raise the Capital Gains Tax to be fair. That's right to be FAIR! As stated in his interview with Charlie Gibson. Exactly how much money do you expect wealthy people to risk in investment with a diminishing profit margin? Class warfarer or envy serves the people of this country no good.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***You mean like how the uber rich only pay 10% tax on their capital gains income while working stiffs pay much more on "earned income?*** I believe it's 15% actually, although with loopholes perhaps they do manage 10.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I believe it's 15% actually, although with loopholes perhaps they do manage 10. << There's always loopholes if you have the money to find them. A large number of our politicians are lawyers.
