Originally Posted By Mr X ***Just how much do you think is fair for the rich to pay?*** How about simply as much as everyone else does (at least)? ***Class warfarer or envy serves the people of this country no good.*** Oh, there's got to be a political cartoon in here somewhere. Some fat cat behind a two way mirror laughing his butt off and thinking "sucker" would work. Don't ENVY them? Wha? Why wouldn't you envy someone who is miles ahead of the pack income wise, AND gets personal favors from the government in order to make the gap even wider? I sure do, I would love to get breaks like that.
Originally Posted By MPierce I meant to say in my other post X that I believe the only two major transit systems that are profitable are Tokyo, and Mexico City. At least that's what I remember reading. I've only seen pictures of the Tokyo subway system. I'm sure it is very effecient however I don't think it would be much fun to ride. I would like to be a pusher though!
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I sure do, I would love to get breaks like that. << Make large sums of money then risk it in investments, and you will. It's not like these people got rich by luck. Envy is a cancer that eats at the soul. Why not be happy with what you have yourself. If you require more we have systems in place that will enable you to live that dream.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> How about simply as much as everyone else does (at least)? << I believe the figure is the upper 10% pay 50% of the taxes. I believe the tax rate for them is 36%. Now I would be all for playing Robin Hood here (it's the humanitarian thing to do), if it weren't for a couple things. You have to be careful aboout going after the fat cats because you might just hurt small business with your enactments. Revenue will shrink as more money, and jobs go overseas. Guess who will eventually have to make up the difference.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***It's not like these people got rich by luck.*** I'd say being born into a trust fund family is pretty lucky. ***Why not be happy with what you have yourself.*** I can't be happy with what I have without also fighting for things to be more equitable? I think not. I was very moved by reading Warren Buffets story about how he pays far less (in percentage terms) than his secretary does. There's something very wrong with that. ***I'm sure it is very effecient however I don't think it would be much fun to ride.*** It's not only efficient, it's also extremely safe, clean, and punctual. Also, the horror stories you are thinking of only occur on a few lines out of hundreds, and those only a couple of hours a day at most during rush hour. Easily avoidable (except for me, once a month I'm forced to ride at 7:30am on the busiest line in Tokyo and yes, it IS a nightmare). ***I would like to be a pusher though!*** It's not as fun as you might imagine. Sounds fun, getting to shove people around. But it's more like trying to shove a side of beef into 100 more sides of beef before closing the freezer doors. Those guys are sweating like hogs doing that job. I wouldn't want it!
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I was very moved by reading Warren Buffets story about how he pays far less (in percentage terms) than his secretary does. There's something very wrong with that. << Which would you prefer, Buffets taxes or his secretarys? Then we get into the fact of how many jobs does Buffet provide compared to his secretary. How much does the Government receive from his secretary? Now how much does it receive from the employees, and company's that Buffet is responsible for? Just how much more money should we take from the job creators before we find ourself abandoned by them. The Rich are a very easy target, and yes some folks do inhearit their wealth. Just remember they didn't inherite it from their poor lazy parents that spent the last five generations on welfare. Life as you well know was never meant to be equtable. I guess about the closes you can get to that is by working for Ben and Jerry's. Yes, I was only kidding about being a pusher. I think most people perceive foreign countries in a different light when they have never actually been there. I've only been to Okinawa, and that was many moons ago.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I believe the figure is the upper 10% pay 50% of the taxes.*** Holy crap. They must be making boatloads of money then, wow. ***I believe the tax rate for them is 36%.*** If you believe that, I've got a bridge you might be interested in.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Then we get into the fact of how many jobs does Buffet provide compared to his secretary.*** Buffet doesn't provide any jobs (well, maybe he has a butler, I dunno), Berkshire Hathaway does. We're talking about his *personal* income here, and as it turns out he pays an incredibly small percentage of it to the feds compared to "common folk".
Originally Posted By MPierce Where's the bridge, and how much. I worded that incorrectly that should read the upper bracket is 36%
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Just how much more money should we take from the job creators before we find ourself abandoned by them*** That's hilarious. Where are they going to go, which country can they move to that won't also tax the crap out of their vast riches far more than America does. These arguments just ring so hollow for me these days, can you guys get some newer, more compelling ones please? Please note here, I've not said the rich should pay MORE, in this particular case I'm simply asking they pay as much as everyone else does. And you're actually arguing against that. Wow, you must be a billionaire or something, to be defending the indefensible so vehemently!
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I worded that incorrectly that should read the upper bracket is 36%*** Right. Except that the higher up you go, the less likely they're paying themselves with "earned income" money and the more likely it's some sort of capital gains thing (which is WAY less than 36%).
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Holy crap. They must be making boatloads of money then, wow. << Yes they are, and some are losing boatloads of money too. They earn the country as a whole gains, and we should all be thankful that there are people wealthy enough to invest in the economy.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***we should all be thankful that there are people wealthy enough to invest in the economy*** False premise. A lot of them don't invest in the economy. Conversely, a lot of wealth from other countries do invest in the economy. America is not an island.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> That's hilarious. << By abandoned I meant abandoned in the market. Not so hilarious when people decide it's time to hold on to what they have rather than invest in the future. Ask national retailers how it feels. >> These arguments just ring so hollow for me these days, can you guys get some newer, more compelling ones please? << You guys? It's only me having a discussion with you. Can't YOU GUYS have a discussion without trying to put labels on someone? >> Please note here, I've not said the rich should pay MORE, in this particular case I'm simply asking they pay as much as everyone else does. And you're actually arguing against that. << No I'm not arguing against the rich paying as much as everone else does. They already do. I'm arguing against class warfare, and the rich being presented as a Judas goat to this country. >> Wow, you must be a billionaire or something, to be defending the indefensible so vehemently! << In reality Bill Gates makes me look like a pauper. Now do you care to get into charities, and foundations set up by the rich?
Originally Posted By MPierce >> False premise. A lot of them don't invest in the economy. << Name just one please. >> Conversely, a lot of wealth from other countries do invest in the economy. << That's true as well as a lot of Americans, and American corporations invest in foreign countries. >> America is not an island. << By America I'm assuming you mean the USA, and you are very correct. We are attached to Canada, Central America, and South America, and Sarah Palin can see Russia from her house.
Originally Posted By MPierce One other thing X. I believe I read somewhere that the US finally surpassed Japan for the highest corporate tax rate in the World.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***No I'm not arguing against the rich paying as much as everone else does. They already do.*** No, they don't. ***One other thing X. I believe I read somewhere that the US finally surpassed Japan for the highest corporate tax rate in the World.*** Good. Now they should make strict laws against outsourcing. If a company wants to relocate they should do so entirely, AND be restricted from any commerce with the U.S. in the process. ***You guys? It's only me having a discussion with you. Can't YOU GUYS have a discussion without trying to put labels on someone?*** Fair enough. But there's nothing in your arguments I haven't hear before (gee, I wonder where? ).
Originally Posted By Mr X ***>> False premise. A lot of them don't invest in the economy. << Name just one please.*** Okay, that's fair. I should've said a lot of them don't invest *heavily* in the economy. And I could name plenty (George Soros for starters).
Originally Posted By MPierce >> No, they don't. << We disagree then. ***One other thing X. I believe I read somewhere that the US finally surpassed Japan for the highest corporate tax rate in the World.*** >> Good. Now they should make strict laws against outsourcing. If a company wants to relocate they should do so entirely, AND be restricted from any commerce with the U.S. in the process. << I totally agree with you on that. >> Fair enough. But there's nothing in your arguments I haven't hear before (gee, I wonder where? ). << It's very hard to argue any different than what you believe in. I could choose to say the same thing about the language in your points, however I won't. I don't believe you are parroting others. I believe them to be your word because that's how you feel. I've got to go now as I am being paged back into the real world.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***>> No, they don't. << We disagree then.*** I don't understand how. Capital gains are much lower than earned income taxes, in general. CEO's and other uber-weathy types derive most of their income through capital gains. Ergo, they pay less in taxes in percentage terms than most. How is that not factual for you?
