Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror >>>This EPCOT Center situation isn't about bringing back Horizons or Commincore or the WorldStations etc ... it's about a REBIRTH (watch Iger will steal this for his speech on the first!) of the EPCOT Ideal.<<< Hopefully, yes! Words mean things, and sometimes a NAME is galvanizing. It can, as "EPCOT Center" did, embody a philosophy, a mission statement. "Epcot" was adopted for convenience, it was reactionary. There was nothing forward or futurism-oriented about shortening the original name of the park, or adopting a "convenient" nickname. It was simply emblematic of what followed: Dumbing the park down. If you LIKE your parks dumb, or if you simply don't think about these things, then you probably won't care. But if you pause to consider that words mean things, and that there was very careful thought given to the original name of the park, and reasons behind that, it's tough NOT to be glad that there's at the very least a symbolic return to the park's ORIGINAL mission and philosophy. But I can't see how a thinking person can consider a name change back to EPCOT Center a BAD thing. Not when they really think about what it probably/hopefully represents: A return to INNOVATIVE thinking and presentation.
Originally Posted By Indigo Think about what Bob Iger stands for at the WDC. He's all about merging media and technology. So it seems natural to me that Iger would want to have EPCOT Center as a place where he could explore and play with those ideas. Somebody call Bran Ferran.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Yes, I don't think it's too feasible for Disney to bring back all these old attractions and areas, but I do like what Spirit says about the "vibe" returning. I'd love to see new attractions, and entertainment with the old vibe, but presented in new ways. I would love the return of Dreamfinder, but hopefully also in an all-new way. Sure, I loved the old attraction, as well as Horizons, but it's just not practicall to bring things back just as they were. It's funny, I guess they are going for just that little bit of nostalgia to get people feeling good again, while still heading in a new direction. Disneyland did this for the 50th, and it's amazing to see EPCOT Center (love it!) doing the same. It makes me really excited, and I am so looking forward to my Christmas trip now!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Words mean things, and sometimes a NAME is galvanizing. It can, as "EPCOT Center" did, embody a philosophy, a mission statement. "Epcot" was adopted for convenience, it was reactionary.>> Absolutely. It was also a convenient way to ignore the park's purpose ... the meaning behind the creation. EPCOT Center stood for something literally and figuratively. Epcot did/does not. It's just a word with no meaning ... a location perhaps at the WDW Resort ... you know the park with the giant golfball with Mickey's wand... well, that ws then. <<There was nothing forward or futurism-oriented about shortening the original name of the park, or adopting a "convenient" nickname. It was simply emblematic of what followed: Dumbing the park down.>> I prefer WalMarting because it so galvanizes the simple folk. <<If you LIKE your parks dumb, or if you simply don't think about these things, then you probably won't care. But if you pause to consider that words mean things, and that there was very careful thought given to the original name of the park, and reasons behind that, it's tough NOT to be glad that there's at the very least a symbolic return to the park's ORIGINAL mission and philosophy. But I can't see how a thinking person can consider a name change back to EPCOT Center a BAD thing. Not when they really think about what it probably/hopefully represents: A return to INNOVATIVE thinking and presentation.>> Yes sir. And that's something that's been sadly lacking as we know. I truly believe this is the start of a new and very positive era for the park. It's always been my favorite just because of its innovative, optimistic, worldview. I realize in the last 15 years, we've become a very cynical nation (and with some reason). But I still believe in my country (if not its leaders) and in its people ... I just don't accept ... won't accept that everything must be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Of course, the cynic in me is still waiting for the MK to be renamed Disney/Pixar's Magical Character Kingdom.
Originally Posted By Skellington88 Any plans to remove Phil Holmes and get somebody who will treat the magic kingdom with respect?
Originally Posted By ExplorerDave Hi all this is my first post here, this topic got me a bit excited. I never got to see EPCOT Center before the walmarting started. Never saw Horizons, World of Motion, the original Universe of Energy, etc. First saw EPCOT a couple years ago and it was good, but I also had a sadness for all the wonderful things which had been removed and that I never got to see. (I sure knew about them, I wish they had added rather than replaced) I am looking forward to seeing more new energy there and hopefully a return to the original spirit of the park. Personally I’d also still like to see Walt’s real EPCOT built, that could give even more meaning to this park being named “EPCOT Centerâ€. I’m originally from the West Coast and went to Disneyland many times (I now live in FL) with the idea of new takes on old classics I’d like to suggest an update of an old Disneyland attraction that could be perfect for EPCOT Center. That is Adventure Through Inner Space. Science has learned a lot since then and it would be cool to see an update of this attraction that went as deep as quantum mechanics! When I saw ATIS the first time I was very young and cried because I really thought I was going to get shrunk, but I loved it and by the time I got off I immediately wanted to ride it again. I think an update could be incredible.
Originally Posted By brockbliss <<Words mean things, and sometimes a NAME is galvanizing. It can, as "EPCOT Center" did, embody a philosophy, a mission statement. "Epcot" was adopted for convenience, it was reactionary>> I am surprised that I did not see anyone post what EPCOT stood for.......... I hope that I am not the only one who remembers. E.....experimaental P.....prototype C.....community O.....of T.....tomorrow or the saying that was for fun (every person comes out tired).
Originally Posted By brockbliss I forgot to mention, they got rid of that meaning when they dropped the "Center" from the name. Glad to see the true name return.
Originally Posted By Bob Paris Yep, I think most people here know what "EPCOT" stands for, Brockbliss. We ARE on a Disney park board afterall. ; )
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "I am surprised that I did not see anyone post what EPCOT stood for" Last time I was at EPCOT, we actually witnessed two cast members telling guests what the acronym meant. One was on the Tram ride into the park, and the other was on one of the Friendship boats. I couldn't believe it - that was one of the first times that I actually started to think that EPCOT might be coming back.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> What will likely transpire is a more cohesive park that has a vibe like the original EC had, but with new experiences and attractions (and dining as well!) << Ponders this statement... This is addressed to everyone. Are they going to bulldoze Epcot, and actually build an EPCOT Center? While I'm glad they are trying to get WDW back into shape, I don't think they have forgotten the real reason EPCOT Center was built. It's a theme park designed to make money. Celebration was suppose to be EPCOT Center. I will withhold my excitement until I see the final product. While some may find Epcot lacking it's still my favorite park. We all have visions of what Epcot should be like, sometimes that vision is not the same as others.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Any plans to remove Phil Holmes and get somebody who will treat the magic kingdom with respect? >> That's been in my plans for quite a while.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<This is addressed to everyone. Are they going to bulldoze Epcot, and actually build an EPCOT Center?>> Epcot WAS EPCOT Center before it was WalMarted. Now, I know you weren't being literal, but I think the point stands. <<While I'm glad they are trying to get WDW back into shape, I don't think they have forgotten the real reason EPCOT Center was built. It's a theme park designed to make money.>> OK. When has anyone ever disagreed with that? <<Celebration was suppose to be EPCOT Center.>> Well, no, it wasn't. Celebration was the brainchild of Michael Eisner and the DDC, which decided that land isn't valuable unless you put something on it ... and wouldn't anyone want to live in WDW? It had nothing to do with EPCOT Center or the EPCOT ideal whatsoever, even though it has been stated as such by weak writers (and thinkers) trying to make a correlation between Walt Disney's visionary 1960s view of a utopian community of the future and a corporation taking advantage of a new trend/style in building communities to give them the feel of an old-time American town vs. typical suburban sprawl. Whether or not they were successful is a discussion for another thread/time. But Celebration was in no way unique, even when it was built, even in Florida. There was a similar community in the Panhandle built prior. And many others, including the one I reside in, have taken cues from that style. But to say Celebration is what EC morphed into just isn't the truth. Two different things. And, personally, I would have much rather Celebration not been built and still be grazing land for cattle until Disney could do something truly special with the land instead of just building another 'lifestyle community.' <<I will withhold my excitement until I see the final product.>> That's a wise thing to do. Believe me, I'm not jumping the gun and saying everything will be great again. But having leadership that to use a cliche 'gets it' running the park is huge. To also see, yet again, that the online community and 'purists' can have a profound effect on what and how Disney operates is also gratifying. When I see those things and add them to what I hear from other spirits, it gives me cause for a lot of hope. And that hasn't been the case in a long, long time. <<While some may find Epcot lacking it's still my favorite park. We all have visions of what Epcot should be like, sometimes that vision is not the same as others.>> True again. Sometimes, I'll see a fanboy talk about bringing back Horizons (forgetting the shear lunacy of the notion) or things like that and I'll cringe. ... Of course, I also do a lot of cringing when hearing people defend things like the wand or the characterization of every Disney park or that the place is too big to keep clean or maintained etc ... Ultimately, though, I don't think it really matters that much what individuals think the park should be. The park had an amazing identity in the 1980s and into the 90s and was incredibly successful on a financial level as well. It's been WalMarted in so many ways by a succession of very bad 'leaders' and the rise to power of Disney Marketing. I just want to see the park live up its past glory. I don't want to see us going backward. I don't want to visit a museum because that's almost the polar opposite of what EC stood for. But I do want to see the park have its cohesive identity back ... and not have things just thrown in for the sake of it ... and that's what has largely happened since the mid-90s. I also want to see a park that truly adds new things ... not chopped up and re-edited Circlevision films or adding characters everywhere ... and a park that is constantly changing and evolving. It also wouldn't hurt if they stopped relying on Flower and Garden and Food and Wine to drive attendance so much ... especially if the events are going to be largely the same year after year. But, again, that's another topic.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Celebration was the brainchild of Michael Eisner and the DDC, which decided that land isn't valuable unless you put something on it ... and wouldn't anyone want to live in WDW? >> I wouldn't characterize it that way. Way back in the 60s, Walt Disney sold the local governments in Florida on the idea of an EPCOT Center that would include residential and commercial enterprises. EPCOT never materialized that way and Florida governments began to ask why they gave Disney so many incentives for development and government powers when EPCOT was just a theme park. In the late 80s local governments were actively campaigning and threatening to condemn large chunks of Disney property in order to develop them for "public use." The emergence of Celebration represents a direct response to those threats moreso than an overarching scheme to develop every inch of WDW property.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^I would characterize it that way. You're right that some local government officials weren't thrilled with Disney in the late 1980s and 1990s, but it had nothing to do with not building Walt's utopian community and everything to do with Disney becoming a very bad, very greedy, very one-minded corporate behemoth. Celebration ... as well as DVC ... as well as all the resorts that were built ... and all the expansion was due to a voracious desire to 'build out' WDW and keep guests prisoners. That mentality hasn't at all changed ... as a matter of fact, with things like DME and the DDP, they're even pushing it further. It's very naive to believe otherwise.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy WDW isn't a financially viable place unless guests spend a very large amount of time on property. The WDW balance sheet doesnn't add up if guests only go there for a day and then spend their nights in restaurants or hotels outside the gates. The "build out" of WDW was largely in response to the "build out" of Orlando with other competing parks, hotels, and restaurants. You can characterize it as greed, but you also have to acknowledge that WDW requires 10 times the cash flow of other similar attractions to keep its business model on course.
Originally Posted By danyoung >But to say Celebration is what EC morphed into just isn't the truth. Two different things.< I think it's fair to say, though, that Disney went pretty far in its promotion of Celebration as the final realization of Walt's dream. I always had my doubts, and one trip to the downtown area confirmed them. While it may or may not be a nice community, it an't EPCOT.
Originally Posted By DlandDug This thread has been an interesting read. I feel like I've fallen down a combination time-tunnel/rabbit hole. Ten years ago, when Paul Pressler's deadly grip was wringing the last vestige of good out of Walt's original Magic Kingdom, a lot of us on the West Coast were very unhappy over the lavish attention and spending over on the East Coast. The nadir, of course, was the announcement that Disneyland's 50th Birthday would be celebrated with four new attractions-- to be built in Walt Disney World! What a difference since the 50th! Disneyland is looking great these days, and it's WDW (EPCOT specifically) that is now playing catch up. I first visited EPCOT Center in 1986. I will never forget walking into the entry plaza-- the swelling music, Spaceship Earth looming overhead, and a great, great sense of both arrival and anticipation. After repeated visits, my favorite attractions were Horizons, the original Imagination, and Kitchen Cabaret. I was also very fond of the original Living Seas. I cannot say if they will ever be able to recapture the original vibe of EPCOT Center. Today it seems like an unrelated bunch of thrill rides and shops, with too much cluttery overlay that doesn't hang together. A side note on the EPCOT/Celebration discussion: Walt Disney was given some pretty amazing concessions by the state of Florida back in 1965. This was predicated, in large part, on his assurance that an actual city of 20,000 inhabitants (read: taxpayers) would be an integral part of Walt Disney World. As the property was developed, this did not happen in anything like the expected timetable. The appearance of EPCOT as a theme park sealed the critics' minds, giving them plenty of ammunition to declare the whole political deal a fraud. Celebration's sole link to EPCOT is that it met the critics' charge that Disney never lived up to their part of the bargain. Celebration is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER related to Walt's vision of EPCOT. Not to say that makes it a bad thing. It just isn't the same thing.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I think it's fair to say, though, that Disney went pretty far in its promotion of Celebration as the final realization of Walt's dream. I always had my doubts, and one trip to the downtown area confirmed them. While it may or may not be a nice community, it an't EPCOT. < It's closer to "Main Street USA " than EPCOT - and in that way I think it succeeded as well as can be expected. I actually had money down on a lot/house there near the end of phase 1. Builder was David Weekley - nice home, but the location just not work for me then work wise - it would today but couldn't foresee that. I saw it as more of Main Street - Mayberry whatever in concept -
