Originally Posted By Skellington88 Its gonna take along time to fully heal Epcot Center here is a list of things to get done: The following pavillions/attractions need to be either reworked or bulldozed and restarted from scratch: Universe of Energy (reworked..save the dinosaurs!) Wonders of Life building (bulldoze) Mission Space (rework...convert to eddie sotto's space pavillion concept) Test Track (bulldoze?) Mexico (replace cheap cartoon tie-in with a real attraction) Living Seas (drop nemo...rework pavillion to something more exciting) Imagination (TOTAL OVERHAUL REQUIRED) Innoventions (remove those big posters that cover the windows...let light poor into the building again...be more agressive updating exhibits with sponsors...keep 1 or 2 permanent attractions like a robot to keep people entertained. Preferably change name back to Communicore) Remove Leave a legacy tombstones Remove canopie over communicore plaza (bring back the little water ponds on each side of the Communicore buildings) Put a glass sculpture back on the Fountain in front of the park Add new Countries (no cartoon tie-ins please!) Add new Pavillions (science based like a weather pavillion, a New Horizons type thing, etc.)
Originally Posted By vbdad55 while I agree with a lot of those- there'd be plenty of pzd off people if you bulldoze test track -- it may not exactly be top of the heap - but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it that slightly more theming wouldn't cure --
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<WDW isn't a financially viable place unless guests spend a very large amount of time on property.>> That is certainly the case now. But it wasn't always the case. Adding umpteen parks, resorts, entertainment etc ... required huge capital outlays and then labor to staff them and more money to maintain them. Because WDW is such a huge beast in the 21st century, it requires massive financial feedings, no doubt. <<The WDW balance sheet doesnn't add up if guests only go there for a day and then spend their nights in restaurants or hotels outside the gates.>> True. But, again, WDW has vastly more offerings now and with 30,000 plus resort rooms and timeshare units, far more people are prisoner to the Mouse now then two decades ago. I would venture to say a fairly large majority of folks take WDW vacations now. A few decades ago, most people took Florida vacations that included 1-4 days at WDW (likely not on property), the rest all over. <<The "build out" of WDW was largely in response to the "build out" of Orlando with other competing parks, hotels, and restaurants.>> This is what I call the classic chicken and egg argument. The build out of Orlando came as a result of the continued expansion of WDW. As a Floridian, I recall how little building actually happened in Central Florida in the late 70s-early 80s period. It was only after EC debuted that a second wave of off-site building began. Even that, trailed off a fair amount until the end of the decade and the debut of Disney-MGM Studios, Typhoon Lagoon, Pleasure Island -- and yes, Universal Studios -- that development just shot off the charts. It really hasn't slowed since. But neither has WDW growth. If the WDW of 1987 existed today, I very much doubt the huge urban sprawl in the four county area would have taken place. It was the explosive growth of WDW that fueled the growth of everything from subdivisions to timeshares to 7-11s to Hampton Inns to huge resorts. <<You can characterize it as greed, but you also have to acknowledge that WDW requires 10 times the cash flow of other similar attractions to keep its business model on course.>> No, not really because I would have to acknowledge that there are similar attractions to WDW to compare with. There simply are none. The closest would be Disney resorts in other places and Universal Florida, and none of them approach the scope and size of WDW. I could also argue that business model of continuous growth at WDW is a flawed one to begin with because it will always require more money coming in ... and then you have a never-ending cycle until there isn't one square inch of green space left at WDW ... and then, of course, you have to lower costs by dropping quality even further to meet projections. A vicious cycle.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I think it's fair to say, though, that Disney went pretty far in its promotion of Celebration as the final realization of Walt's dream. I always had my doubts, and one trip to the downtown area confirmed them. While it may or may not be a nice community, it an't EPCOT.>> Well, Danny, you can never overestimate the levels to which marketing will stoop to shill whatever it is that Disney is currently selling. Just sit in your WDW resort room (likely Pop Century for a cheapskate like you!) and watch the DVC Channel where they trot out the famous 'Why Walt Built DL Interview' ... somehow they make it appear that Walt did so because one day decades later his company would own the Timeshare Kingdom of the World in Central Florida. It's disengenuous at best, disgusting at worst. I have often wished I could meet Diane Disney and ask her what she thinks of it.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<This thread has been an interesting read. I feel like I've fallen down a combination time-tunnel/rabbit hole.>> Hah! You need to visit the WDW Board more often! I notice the vast majority of LPers hang in either the DL side or the WDW side ... <<Ten years ago, when Paul Pressler's deadly grip was wringing the last vestige of good out of Walt's original Magic Kingdom, a lot of us on the West Coast were very unhappy over the lavish attention and spending over on the East Coast. The nadir, of course, was the announcement that Disneyland's 50th Birthday would be celebrated with four new attractions-- to be built in Walt Disney World!>> Yeah. I don't think that was right at all. But it all came from Michael Mendenhall, Jay Rasulo and Disney Marketing. And no one at Team Disney was smart enough to realize the 'sleeping giant' Disney had in Anaheim. How they were so lost is yet another indictment of the 'leadership' of the company from the mid-90s on. <<What a difference since the 50th! Disneyland is looking great these days, and it's WDW (EPCOT specifically) that is now playing catch up.>> I thought that even at its low point, in the late 90s, DL still in many ways outdid WDW (or the MK to be accurate) in terms of a quality, magical Disney experience. ...And that was with the Tiki Room and Main Street rotting away, burned out light bulbs all over the place and Toontown peeling out of existence! And EC, even now in its current state, is a wonderful park with many great reasons to visit. Now, the MK is a whole other story (or thread). <<I first visited EPCOT Center in 1986. I will never forget walking into the entry plaza-- the swelling music, Spaceship Earth looming overhead, and a great, great sense of both arrival and anticipation.>> Wasn't it amazing? Everytime I went, I just felt good stepping inside the gates. Kind of how I feel at DL. You knew you had arrived at an incredible destination and were in for a treat. <<After repeated visits, my favorite attractions were Horizons, the original Imagination, and Kitchen Cabaret. I was also very fond of the original Living Seas.>> I enjoyed all of the above, greatly. Of course, I also enjoyed WoM a whole lot more than Test Track (and its gum ramp!) <<I cannot say if they will ever be able to recapture the original vibe of EPCOT Center. Today it seems like an unrelated bunch of thrill rides and shops, with too much cluttery overlay that doesn't hang together.>> That is true. It's because everything added over the past decade (with the exception of Soarin that was -- except for the views of the show build --integrated perfectly into its pavilion) hasn't taken into consideration how it fit in the whole scheme of the park. Even Mission Space, which I enjoy, was a colossal miststep. Where EPCOT needed a space pavilion with many attractions/experiences, Disney put in a very expensive thrill ride that many can't experience. <<A side note on the EPCOT/Celebration discussion: Walt Disney was given some pretty amazing concessions by the state of Florida back in 1965. This was predicated, in large part, on his assurance that an actual city of 20,000 inhabitants (read: taxpayers) would be an integral part of Walt Disney World. As the property was developed, this did not happen in anything like the expected timetable. The appearance of EPCOT as a theme park sealed the critics' minds, giving them plenty of ammunition to declare the whole political deal a fraud. Celebration's sole link to EPCOT is that it met the critics' charge that Disney never lived up to their part of the bargain. Celebration is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER related to Walt's vision of EPCOT. Not to say that makes it a bad thing. It just isn't the same thing.>> Exactly. There was no quid pro quo written as to TWDC builds a futuristic utopian city in a certain number of years or else Disney loses its land and/or rights. And, while people like to put themselves in Walt's mind, there's no saying had he lived another 10-20 years that EPCOT would have been built or been built in any form like what he originally conceived of. There's no way that can ever be debated because we just don't know. I do think it's reasonable to assume Walt wasn't looking to build a hotel and resort empire when he looked down from the plane, spotted what's now What Used To Be Discovery Island and said 'this is the place.' But maybe I'm wrong! ;-)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Its gonna take along time to fully heal Epcot Center here is a list of things to get done:>> Sorry Skellington, but while a few of the things on your list are almost definite to happen, the majority won't. And I think you can tell what's reasonable to expect and what is not.
Originally Posted By MPierce I would never try to match my knowledge of WDW up against yours Spirit on anything. I reread my post, and realize I didn't say what I meant. Epcot Center the theme park had nothing to do with Walt's vision. It was just a way to use land, and bring in more revenue. I'm sure glad it was built also. All good Epcot lovers know this. It was not a statement meant to explain anything to anybody here. Celebration was suppose to be the realization of Walt's vision as I understand it. It fell fall short of the mark, but the many articles I read on it during the development stated that was it's goal. No, it did not turn out to be the real EPCOT Center with monorails, and people movers, and office towers. I think the Utopian City, is really a Utopian Dream. I just don't think anybody can pull it off. I've read so many articles on EPCOT Center, the park, I can't get a clue into what it's real purpose was, other than an experimental theme park. It has changed over the years, not always for the better. It will continue to change in the future, as it should. This time I hope it's for the good. I'm sure some of us will be happy with the change, and some of us will not. Skelly I know you have a particularly strong passion for Epcot. I'm sure a number of your ideas will be implemented over the coming years. Sometime change takes longer than some of us would like, and some of us do not want change. Regardless of what the changes are I'm sure we will always have lively debates over these changes or lack of change. vbdad, if you don't mind me asking, did you sell your lot in Celebration or did you hang onto it for investment? I strongly considered it, but it was a lot of money, and I just didn't know if I wanted to live there in a Utopian city. We looked at a similar design north of here in the Woodlands. The tax, and homeowners fee would eat you up.
Originally Posted By danyoung >Just sit in your WDW resort room (likely Pop Century for a cheapskate like you!)...< Hey, there's a difference between cheap and broke! Besides, next trip this December I'll be soaking up the southwestern vibe of the Coronado Springs Resort, by far my favorite of the moderates, and even preferred over most of the premiums. So there thbthbthbthbthbthbbbbbbbbbb!!!!
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << The appearance of EPCOT as a theme park sealed the critics' minds, giving them plenty of ammunition to declare the whole political deal a fraud. >> Actually, EPCOT had nothing to do with fueling criticism against WDW. The main incident that got Disney into hot water was when they used their municipal powers of Reedy Creek to siphon off some funds from a municipal bond issue to pay for WDW expansion. The taxpayers weren't happy to see a public company use municipal debt and taxpayer's money to pay for business expenses.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <It was only after EC debuted that a second wave of off-site building began. Even that, trailed off a fair amount until the end of the decade and the debut of Disney-MGM Studios, Typhoon Lagoon, Pleasure Island -- and yes, Universal Studios -- that development just shot off the charts. It really hasn't slowed since.< yeah, but it also mirrors the building around the rest of Florida ( many old sleepy towns are now bustling )- due to the aging ot the BB generation and the movement south from northern states for retirement.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <vbdad, if you don't mind me asking, did you sell your lot in Celebration or did you hang onto it for investment?< unfortunately I sold it - as there was a time limit that you had to start construction by...and I was not going to be able to meet it. The costs were significant for similar Florida properties at the time, but comparatively to housing where I live now - it was still cheaper. The upside is I did buy property on the East Coast which has worked out rather well - ( not sure if I am going to build there or not yet- we'll see in about 3 years)
Originally Posted By Skellington88 >>Sorry Skellington, but while a few of the things on your list are almost definite to happen, the majority won't. And I think you can tell what's reasonable to expect and what is not.<< I know...I just wanted to point as much out as possible though and im hoping that everything on my list will happen within the next 20 years.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>Actually, EPCOT had nothing to do with fueling criticism against WDW. The main incident that got Disney into hot water was when they used their municipal powers of Reedy Creek to siphon off some funds from a municipal bond issue to pay for WDW expansion. The taxpayers weren't happy to see a public company use municipal debt and taxpayer's money to pay for business expenses.<< While the bond grab did, indeed, tick off Florida taxpayers, the ever vigilant critics had already made up their minds long before. The appearance of EPCOT the theme park gave them a clearly defined flash point. The bond grab was a very persuasive later issue, since critics could use it to "prove" that Disney was negatively impacting ordinary folks right in the pocketbook.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I would never try to match my knowledge of WDW up against yours Spirit on anything.>> Please, MPierce, don't sell yourself short. You, IMHO, are one of our more articulate, reasoned voices here ... hell, you don't even get all emotional in some of the more Spirited debates. <<I reread my post, and realize I didn't say what I meant.>> That happens to me frequently. I call it the quick post because I have a life problem. I do wish we had an edit feature, but Doobie is too cheap (likely saving $$$ for another Disney Cruise!) ;-) <<Epcot Center the theme park had nothing to do with Walt's vision. It was just a way to use land, and bring in more revenue. I'm sure glad it was built also. All good Epcot lovers know this.>> Absolutely. The thing is no one from John Hench to Card Walker to Ron Miller to Marty Sklar really knew exactly what Walt wanted to do and how to even go about something of that magnitude. It was the 70s. <<It was not a statement meant to explain anything to anybody here. Celebration was suppose to be the realization of Walt's vision as I understand it. It fell fall short of the mark, but the many articles I read on it during the development stated that was it's goal.>> But that's not really the case at all. The reason that theory keeps alive is twofold. First, Disney publicity did nothing to dissuade those beliefs if it helped sell vastly overpriced (for the time, area and market) homes. And, secondly, every writer who has ever written about Celebration has continued the fallacy by writing it as fact when it is not. <<No, it did not turn out to be the real EPCOT Center with monorails, and people movers, and office towers.>> True. But you can pull right out onto Irlo Bronsan (192) and see t-shirt shops, fast food outlets and cheap motels. That's gotta count for something! <<I think the Utopian City, is really a Utopian Dream. I just don't think anybody can pull it off. I've read so many articles on EPCOT Center, the park, I can't get a clue into what it's real purpose was, other than an experimental theme park.>> What EPCOT Center's purpose was when conceived, developed and built was simply a permanent World's Fair. That's it. A place to showcase technology of the future and how it might apply to everything from the oceans to farming to transportation, while also showing nations living in harmony in a global village showcasing their cultures, peoples and cuisines. I think EC was incredibly successful in those regards. It's amazing now when illiterate 16-year-olds use touch screens to ring you up at McDonald's, how amazing and cutting edge the World Stations were. Or how solar energy was showcased by the cells on the roof of the Energy pavilion that actually powered the ride vehicles. Or how things like hydroponics could help wipe out famine by farming in once unfathonable conditions. <<It has changed over the years, not always for the better. It will continue to change in the future, as it should. This time I hope it's for the good. I'm sure some of us will be happy with the change, and some of us will not.>> As long as execs like Jim MacPhee have significant power and people like John Lasseter take an interest, I'm convinced EC is heading in a very positive direction not unlike DL about 3 1/2 years ago.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Actually, EPCOT had nothing to do with fueling criticism against WDW. The main incident that got Disney into hot water was when they used their municipal powers of Reedy Creek to siphon off some funds from a municipal bond issue to pay for WDW expansion. The taxpayers weren't happy to see a public company use municipal debt and taxpayer's money to pay for business expenses. >> Yep. If I'm not mistaken it was over water rights or other utilities. Disney basically put a fast one over on the folks in Osceola County and they were not happy, and with good reason. Until that time, Disney to 95% of the locals, could do no wrong.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Hey, there's a difference between cheap and broke!>> OK. I'll give you that. My cheapness quotient usuually goes up proportionately to the level of brokeness I find myself in ;-) <<Besides, next trip this December I'll be soaking up the southwestern vibe of the Coronado Springs Resort, by far my favorite of the moderates, and even preferred over most of the premiums. So there thbthbthbthbthbthbbbbbbbbbb!!!!>> Glad to hear it, Danny. I have stayed at all levels of WDW accomodations and feel they all serve a purpose. And I do love CSR too. But not at much as Port Orleans (the real one!). I feel like the vibe there is very close to a deluxe resort and I also have never gotten an unacceptable room there in about 15 stays since it opened. I did get a very lousy room last time at CSR (in the Cabana section) that was dirty and poorly maintained. I went complained and got a room in the Casitas that had just been rehabbed and smelled of fresh paint. Needless to say, I was quite happy!
Originally Posted By Skellington88 Update: Those ugly awnings are being removed from Fountainview and there is a rumor that the song "Tomorrow's Child" will return when Spaceship Earth Reopens! If true I am so happy! Now if they could just get someone like Patrick Stewart to do the narration i'd be very pleased!
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 That's the other thing about "old" EPCOT Center that I miss; theme songs! Each attraction had it's own song, and they were (mostly) memorable. Now, the new attractions have none...well, except Nemo. Test Track, Mission Space, and Energy all lost their songs in makeovers. I hope THAT portion of old EPCOT Center can come back. I miss the songs!
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 How else can they create a new Official Album if they don't change some of the theme music?
