Originally Posted By SJHYM I dont believe we will ever see the type of wonderous vision that created EPCOT Center again. In the most simplist terms I think that the newest generation of Imagineers (if there are any of those left) don't have the history or heritage at Disney to make that happen. Not that they're not talented, but I think Disney did 2 important things that makes it impossible. First off, Disney didnt put in place a way for new Imagineers to learn at the feet of the pioneers. The fact that Disney has to bring people like Blaine Gibson out of retirement when they need some sculpting done says alot. The current crop of Imagineers are 3rd or 4th generation folks and their view of Disney attractions is different than the original folks. Its one of the reasons I think the rethinking of attractions (like Imagination)look like they do. Second, The Disney Company has a different view of what makes the parks work than the original management. The folks who worked on parks like EPCOT Center and even the Disney-MGM Studios had a vision for those parks. The current mgmt inherited those parks but dont really dont have a vision for them. It really takes heart doesnt it? I think one of the reasons Disney parks were so special is because the people who created them from Walt and Roy to the Imagineers to the people who ran the parks really had a heart for them. I dont think thats true today. Todays mgmt are just managers of the vision.
Originally Posted By Jim_n_Ruth Walt Disney said that things would never be completed. That means constant changing. There will be mixed reviews on the changes. I don't blame the changes for lower attendence. I blame it on higher prices, inflation, and the events/fears lingering over 9/11. WDW is still the number one vacation resort in the world. That tells me they are doing things better than everyone else. I've been there six times now. And yes, I scratch my head to at times BUT.....I keep going back because nothing can compare to it. No matter where I go, I find myself comparing it to WDW, and that's not fair to the places I go to. I'll be there for Halloween this year. Never did Halloween at Disney. I can't wait to get there, and have fun with what is there.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip We must be remembering different attractions. The WoM I experienced never took an hour and the Test Track I ride is also longer than 3 minutes. As for quality, Fodor's 96 guide describes WoM as follows... <<Despite the 20-odd elaborate sets and more than 140 audio-Animatronic characters, sophisticated this ain't. Broad humor rules as humanity tries out ostrich-power and zebra-power before harnessing horse-power, invents the wheel, rolls up the magic carpet, and experiments with flying machines balloons, steam carriages, riverboats, stagecoaches, airplanes, automobiles, and a host of Rube Goldberg contraptions. Genuine antiques, such as old-fashioned automobiles and a 150-year-old Wells Fargo Stagecoach, lend verisimilitude. Kids love this, as well as the addictive jingle "It's Fun to Be Free". Adults may feel the same way when the ride ends.>> So often when people look back at these attractions they are doing so through rose-colored glasses and forget that at the time, many people thought they sucked. As for the attendance figures, they mean relatively little.. the Magic Kingdom, Epcot and MGM Studios all had their peak attendance year in 1997 and have declined considerably since then. My theory as to why? Animal Kingdom opened in 1998 and took attendance away from the other parks just as much as it attracted new people to WDW. Total attendance for the 3 WDW parks in 1997 was 39.2 million. Total attendance for the 4 parks in 1998 was 41.7 million; an increase of only 2.5 million even though AK drew 6 million itself.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Post #23 is responding to (I forgot to quote it): <<Instead of spending an hour in WoM, you can get a three-minute ride that is fun enough, but so what?>>
Originally Posted By SJHYM I also think change is a great thing. As much I love some of the things that are now gone, I understand change. Some of the change is good. I think Ellens Energy Adventure was a good improvement over the original which was getting tired. It's funny, good entertainment and still educational. The change of Wonders of China to Reflections of China is another great change. Both took the original idea and built on it, not destroyed it. But if you look at Imagination and Food Rocks for example, they were poor replacements for the original. If you look at the movies in Canada, France and the boat ride in Mexico (all of which I really love) you cant help but realise that they are past their prime and need some rethinking. The American Adventure is a wonderful show that could be updated using the original shell of the show but adding new things to make it feel like a new attraction. It not change that bothers me, its the way change takes place. I have to agree with a previous poster who commented on Mission:Space which as a stand alone attraction is good, but is missing that spark that makes it great. How about when you exit the ride part, you really feel like you've landed on Mars? (Wild Artic at SeaWorld, does this well) Wonders of Life is a prime example of the lack of heart at EPCOT. It was an attraction that never really hit the mark and attendance at the attraction showed that. Body Wars was the first simulator on WDW property but after its initial opening was never really busy, Cranium Command and the Making of Me while good attractions, quickly showed their age. In fact the entire building felt dated rather quickly. Compare that to the Haunted Mansion or POTC in the MK. And today it sits empty. At a time when health is a major thing in this country, it's hard to believe that Disney cant come up with a viable attraction in an existing building. Take the front entrance of the park. What was once a wonderful expanse of flowers and trees is a terrible, money making thing that looks like a grave yard and is not aging well. On Thursday we looked at some of the pictures(which weren't very good in the first place) and many of the plates are worn and ragged looking. It just takes away from the whole area. As I have said before, entire shops are closed or being used as Kidcot Fun Stops. This past trip we saw this in Mexico, Norway, Germany, Morroco, France and Canada. It takes away from the experience.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA Great post, SJHYM. The thing about Disney -- when one uses that term -- is that it's NOT all about cartoon characters. At least it wasn't years ago. That's what made EPCOT Center so fantastic. It took Disney Theme Park creativity, and put it in this incredible educational framework. 'People don't want to learn' is the rallying cry for change at EPCOT 15 years ago. 'It's not why people go to theme parks.' 'More thrills -- that's what people want.' Says who? It seems to suggest that in the early 80s, when EPCOT Center opened, people DID want to go to theme parks and learn. They did? And that, in 15 years, the audience has changed so much, that attractions like 'Horizons' and 'World of Motion' are passe. Back in 1997, when The Getty Center opened in Los Angeles, it was an absolute blockbuster in a city that has theme parks, movies, beaches, skiing, restaurants, amazing shopping and more. A museum was a blockbuster. Why? Because it became a 'must see' attraction that people almost needed to visit. People pay $25.00 per person to see King Tut's mummified remains at a museum, they pay $25.00 per person to see artifacts and recreations of the Titanic ruins. If something amazing is created, people will pay to see it. That's what EPCOT Center was when it opened in 1983 -- a must see attraction. Today, it's more of a tribute to what it was. How do you entertain and educate? That's up to the Imagineers to figure it out.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: Another thing that made the original EPCOT attractions so precious was the fact that each one had its own original theme song--which helped identify them in a special way. The newer attractions don't have anything like that because current management missed the boat on the importance of something as simple as a catchy theme song to enhance a guest's experience. ORWEN: If current management keeps going in the direction they're going, now, Disney theme parks WON'T always be so special any more. They'll be taken for granted--like Six Flags and some of the others out there. You only remain special if you continue to look for FUTURE ways to BE special. Riding on the coat-tails of someone else's past reputation is what they're doing for now. But that can't last forever. ORGOCH: Sure won't never ketch THIS cauldron gal tryin' ta be no dang apologist fer current Dizzy management!!
Originally Posted By trekkeruss If EPCOT center is/was a kind-of world's fair, it's no wonder it's no longer special to many of you, because a real world's fair is supposed to be a unique and finite event. I would venture to say that if EPCOT hadn't changed at all since the 80's, the park would still have the same problem of no longer being special, at least to those of you that have visited many times. For new visitors to WDW and the current Epcot, I bet they think the place is special.
Originally Posted By Jim_n_Ruth To #28.... You hit the nail right on the head. Good shot. As generations change, so do things people like and want. Keeping ones finger on the pulse isn't easy. What to change. How, when and how much to change are difficult decisions. Especially when you're Disney. You want to hold onto your first generation guests but, you also need to know what future generations of guests are looking for, and give it to them, hoping to please your original guests too. Pretty tall order isn't it? Then, one must remeber share holders too. Enough to make you dizzy, isn't it?
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: It isn't change that's bad and it isn't change that some of us are against. It's BAD change that so many of us are against. If you're going to replace something that was good with something that's inferior, then you'd best leave it alone until you're willing to spend the proper amount of money and good judgement on it, first. That's what my sisters and I call 'hitting the nail right on the head'... ORGOCH: Right on! 'less'n, a course, some of ya's really LIKES a pooh meet 'n greet over 20,000 Frog Legs Under the Sea! ORWEN: Anybody who would prefer the current Journey to Imagination over the original--with DreamFinder, has to make a witch wonder...
Originally Posted By Jim_n_Ruth Are good and inferior a matter of personal tastes and opinions? I think so. There are things I don't like. But others like what I dislike. Balance and compromises are extremely difficult. I think "leave a legacy" at Epcot made the entrance ugly. Others love it. The sorcerer hat in MGM looks awkward and out of place to me, while others love it. No matter what Disney removes or intoduces, someone is going to be unhappy. But somehow, Disney manages to remain the number one visted vacation resort in the world. That speaks for itself.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<It's BAD change that so many of us are against. If you're going to replace something that was good with something that's inferior, then you'd best leave it alone until you're willing to spend the proper amount of money and good judgement on it, first.>> But that is all in the eye of the beholder. Some will think it is good change, some will think it is bad. Personally, I like Test Track much better than World of Motion; and as much as I loved Horizons, I like Mission Space better. It also has little to do with money. Mission Space is probably the most expensive attraction ever built by Disney, and Test Track had to cost many times what WoM cost to build. Yet, you sisters apparently don't think much of either attraction. You can't please all of the people all of the time.
Originally Posted By Kimrue ^^^ The original JII with figment was the best...so sad, the mess they've made with it...tsk tsk tsk
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ If all of you tsk tsk tskers had ridden the danged thing they might not have changed it. But we ALL know the original version was a walk-on during its final years, so people apparently like the memory more than they liked the real thing. And yes, I realize that the new one has been a walk-on from the start, so they didn't improve it in the eyes of most.
Originally Posted By SJHYM ^^^If thats the criteria then should we say Mission:Space is a failure? Soarin had a 60 mins Standy-by wait on Thurs at 11am. Mission:Space had 10 mins posted at Standy-by. I absolutely loved the original JII and rode it every time I went to EPCOT. Does that mean I was against it's closing and redoing? Nope. I was kind of excited until I saw what they did to it. Took out the carousel theater part with Dreamfinder, basically took out Figment, put in a incoherent story line attraction. The second redo, while better is no where near as good as the original. I have talked to the CM's there as well as some friends in mgmt and on the whole the guest comments on this redo are terrible. Neither Disney or Kodak is willing to try a 3rd time. That is what brings me back to my original post. It's not the change that is bad per se but the way Disney approaches those changes. Both EPCOT and Disney-MGM Studios have suffered from whatever model Disney is using to change the parks. Namely: Every store the same Disney characters everywhere. No overall vision of growth in the parks. (With the exception of AK which is under that capable hands of Joe R) No need to educate at all.
Originally Posted By jmuboy I have to agree with post 35.....it does see that MK and DAK are the only parks at WDW with a vision while EPCOT and MGM take whatever can be showhorned in to make the places better and increase agte traffic. Too bad, because both parks are still fixable if they were each given a single WDI cast member to watch over that vision (like Joe at DAK)
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<If thats the criteria then should we say Mission:Space is a failure?>> Many do (though I disagree). It still has longer lines than Horizons did its last few years. It all comes down to personal preference. I like most of the changes. You don't. There is nothing wrong with that. The only time I get a little testy is when people will claim their particular preference is the "right" one.
Originally Posted By SJHYM ^^^But the Mission:Space numbers are very very relevant. When a company spends the most money ever on an attraction there had better be some payback. In the case of Mission:Space the numbers have been disappointing to Disney (per some high insider sources). What does that mean to you and I? Well, when do you think we are going to see a multi-million dollar attraction built at EPCOT?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<it does see that MK and DAK are the only parks at WDW with a vision while EPCOT and MGM take whatever can be showhorned in to make the places better and increase agte traffic. >> I would perhaps agree with you on MGM... it seems to have lost its way. Of course how could it not? It's hard for it to be a studio park when it is no longer a working studio. I disagree though about Epcot. I think Epcot is still basically guided by its original vision. That vision has certainly been modified at times to meet current tastes, but that would have to be expected. Where is Epcot different? Every single attraction is based on reality. History. Life in the Sea. Energy. Space Travel. Automobile Testing. The Land -- Agriculture, Conservation and Travelogue. And although people complained when it was changed from a more fantasy based attraction to one more based in reality, Imagination. World Showcase gives us the Architecture, Cuisine and Culture of many countries. This is very different from the Magic Kingdom where major sections of the park are pure fantasy. Disney may have imported the characters to Epcot to keep the youngsters happy, but what is wrong with that? I find it very easy to ignore them... it doesn't detract from my experience one little bit. If you can't see the difference between Epcot and other Disney parks, you aren’t looking very hard in my opinion.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip << In the case of Mission:Space the numbers have been disappointing to Disney (per some high insider sources).>> Mission Space is ahead of it's time. Wait 10 years for when the bar has been raised on other thrill rides, and I bet Mission Space will be one of the most popular attractions in the park.
