Originally Posted By leemac <<All those 'old, boring, AA-filled, long, imersive' attractions pulled in a whole lot more people in the 80s and into the 90s, with much less advertising and marketing, than Test Track and Mission Space do now. That is a fact.>> LuvDatDisney that isn't correct at all. There are a heap of other reasons why Epcot's attendance was higher in the 80s namely: 1) Still a novel theme park which only really reached build-out in the late 80s; 2) Less Disney competition. No MGM and DAK to cannabalise attendance; and 3) Less Orlando competition, period. People visited Epcot because it was one of only two theme parks to visit at WDW. There is no evidence whatsoever to show that it was the AA attractions that were drawing in the crowds (and I highly doubt that is the case). I've always loved Epcot and continue to do so. Although there have been some missteps such as Imagination I like the direction the park is heading. And to say it lacks education shows that no-one has ventured back into Innoventions recently. The addition of sections like Fantastic Plasticworks and Where's the Fire? are perfect examples of attractions that are great fun and educational. The changes at that pavilion have all been driven by one imagineer too.
Originally Posted By leemac <<whether the current Epcot VP (who isn't well-thought of at all amongst the cast) can push the numbers higher via higher prices and smaller portions at the Food and Wine Festival. >> Funny as I've seen and been told the complete opposite. CMs get genuinely excited when they see Brad in the park. I've never heard a single CM complain about him or the direction of the park. He has campagined hard for cash from WDW to re-jig the park and has been largely successful with Future World. He also has big plans for World Showcase if he gets the chance to do it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Thank you leemac. I get so tired of hearing Epcot bashed, especially when there is no truth behind many or the statements made. Sure there are problem areas at Epcot. But overall I think it is as good as it has ever been and keeps getting better.
Originally Posted By leemac Roadtrip for me the festivals have added a vibrancy that the park never had. Both Flower & Garden and Food & Wine are my two favourite times at any WDW park. Future World also has an energy about it that it never had in the 80s. Ensuring that Test Track circles the exterior of the building and the stunning Mission:SPACE building add a vibrancy that is reminiscent of the original World on the Move. I get a huge kick out of seeing guests' faces when they exit those two pavilions. Far more satisfying than World of Motion and the abysmal Horizons were.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Future World also has an energy about it that it never had in the 80s. Ensuring that Test Track circles the exterior of the building and the stunning Mission:SPACE building add a vibrancy that is reminiscent of the original World on the Move.>> Yes, I agree. I also really like the colorful mobiles, banners, lights in sidewalks, etc. that have been added to the Innoventions plaza. That area was terribly cold and sterile before with those two huge and intimidating white buildings seeming to block your way out to the rest of the park. I love the increased life that area has now. I also think the additions have made it more readily apparent how to exit the plaza.
Originally Posted By BlazesOfFire I totally agree with everything leemac has said. And I love the Food and Wine Festival! I am hoping I make it this year to go around and try something at every booth!
Originally Posted By fkurucz I just had an odd thought. We (Disney nerds) are a lot like car fans. We might be mad at Chevy, Ford or Dodge for what they sell these days, but car fans stick with their brand. They will pine for the glorious past "when cars were cars". Even in the dark days of the late 70's and early 80's (when American cars really were awful) the hardcore fans stayed put. Sound a lot like us, huh? We complain about how DLR and WDW are being ruined and are a shadow of their former selves. But guess where we are all going on vacation this year?
Originally Posted By SFH Re: Post 67: Yup. It's a sign of obsessive fandom. Notice how much a sports team fan will badmouth some managament decisions, or some of the performances. There's a Kenversations column about it: <a href="http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID111090.asp" target="_blank">http://www.laughingplace.com/N ews-ID111090.asp</a> SFH
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: You're so right in what you had to say back there, LuvDatDisney, duckling. Current Disney Management lacks vision and only a Disney apologist would think otherwise. While the flower and garden festivals are certainly nice, they're merely side-dishes. ORWEN: And when the side dishes start looking better than the main course--you've got a problem. ORGOCH: Yeah. A real SERIOUS problem.
Originally Posted By Jim_n_Ruth With no intentions of starting anything hostile, are you related to TDLFAN? Seems neither of you have anything positive to say about WDW. Sad.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<With no intentions of starting anything hostile, are you related to TDLFAN? Seems neither of you have anything positive to say about WDW. Sad.>> Geez... they are WITCHES for chrissakes... what do you expect?? ;-)
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>They will pine for the glorious past "when cars were cars". Even in the dark days of the late 70's and early 80's (when American cars really were awful) the hardcore fans stayed put.<<< Ain't it da truth! I cannot tell you how many times I have heard, "they don't make cars like they used to" and all I can say is thank god! When one is remembering, with adoration, the good old days of cars they fail to remember that if a car got to 100k it was nothing short of a miracle. They didn't even make odometers that went that high. If it got to 60k it was ready for the junk yard or at the very least not to be trusted very far from home. Don't forget to change the plugs, points and condenser and check the timing every 10,000 miles and those bias ply tires good for 20,000 miles at best. (when they didn't go flat, which was all the time). Let's not leave out the mind numbing 12 Mpg they got, downhill with a tail wind, carburetor adjustments, ball joints, king pins, brake jobs and continuous front end alignments. My point of all this ramble is that we always glamorize the past and somehow think that because life was technically simpler it was better. That same logic applies to theme parks. Yes, I will admit that I liked some of the old things and I miss them but the new stuff is, in many instances, better. We just refuse to accept it. Fortunately it doesn't really matter because life will continue to change and we will either keep up with it or fall, kicking and screaming, way behind.
Originally Posted By basas <<With no intentions of starting anything hostile, are you related to TDLFAN? Seems neither of you have anything positive to say about WDW. Sad.>> I've actually heard TDLFan give positive comments once in awhile (when especially deserved). I haven't EVER heard LoveDatDisney give anything but negative though...
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I love Epcot.. but it could use some improvements. I say we hold the next meet at Epcot. Any takers?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I'll be at WDW the last week of January and the first week of February!! I think a meet at Epcot would be great!! We could find out those who can and those who can't. (Ride Mission Space...) ;-)
Originally Posted By trailsend I love EPCOT and will be there this Saturday. I don't mind a discussion of possible changes or ideas. But the few who never, ever have a good thing to say are the ones I will not read or pay any attention to. Their viewpoints have been clouded and hold no validity. It seems to me that some posters here are CM's who have other information that those of us who just simply go to the parks and enjoy do not. I'm not there everyday or every other day so I don't look for the negatives. I go for the pure entertainment and enjoyment. I enjoy it all; whether it is a thrill ride or a boat ride in Mexico or just simply strolling around World Showcase and shopping in all the countries. EPCOT is a lifetime of memories for me and a future of more to be made.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Wow, I go away for a few days ( to watch my young ' en play VB at college) and a thread that has had a few lives before -- reallly gets going. After reading thru all the inputs ( mostly very good ! ) my feelings for what they are worth are: EPCOT had more of a 'mission' than any Disney theme park - or any theme park period when it opened. - to combine education and entertainment into an experience for alll guests where one might learn something if they weren;t careful -- whether it be about the planet , it's people's or it's technology. Somewhere along the way edutainment became passe ( I guess people just got so smart they didn't need that anymore -LOL !) - and even with 2 other parks for gee / whee entertainment ( and now 3 other parks ) - WDW felt like that was also needed in EPCOT. Rather than updating showcases with new movies / attractions / shows -- or rides with new technology, we saw cutbacks on live shows - no parade since the millenium and even further paring down of items indigenous to the particular countries and more generic Disney stuff you can get anywhere. Dreamfinder was gone and figment reduced to a bouncing cartoon character, Wonders of Life shuttered, Horizons gone....etc. Now I am not just reminiscing ( as some have mentioned) about the past for the pasts sake, but sometimes things really were better. I am all for improvement and updating - but is JII 3 better than 1 ? Is it better to have Mission: Space and no WoL ? As a testiment to not only liking all things past -- World of Motion needed updating badly-- and I actually like test Track. Could it have be expanded maybe to have more 'show' -- yes. Is it still a fun attraction, that if one pays some attention you could actually learn a little ( for kids let's say on anti lock brakes etc ) -- yes. Mission: Space I just don't care for but that is my taste, and if it didn't cost us anything else attraction wise - then so be it. But for me the one thing really missing is the human interaction of the late 80's / early 90's -- Innoventions with it's crowds, computers - games for kids and people interacting. It was electric then and all kinds of companies participated -- heck even stodgy old IBM had employees on site ! ( stunned me) - You can off of Spaceship Earth and had more - entertainment value. The 'live' entertainment in the countries was ongoing all day long -- the Chinese acrobats - living statues etc..and heck, even fireworks mid day -- and another crowd gathering. To me EPCOT is the most fun when the crowd gets together for something other than a Fastpass.......Illuminations is great not only because it is a wonderful production, but there is a crowd for it...excitement and anticipation --sooo lacking in the rest of EPCOT right now. IMHO it wouldn't take alot to rejuvenate the park -- some more interested corporate sponsorship would be a heck of a start - take what they can get and start working with it. Add more life to the people areas in the center of EPCOT....give us a parade/show around the lake --something to once again draw people together to oooh and aaah. I know there are some that find EPCOT somehow better today...and I won;t begrudge you your opinion, but I say there is room for the best of both workds to co-exist. I like Soarin' added to the land, now let's get more technology- hand-on places ( can;t believe Sony wouldn't do well with a tech station, since they have Ipod stores in some of the most expensive malls in the world) - btw -- noticing a very similar reference to items from a poster here who has a variance of a name that was known to defend the new EPCOT to the nth degree LG ?
Originally Posted By -em I never "knew" the old epcot as my first visit was in 01 but Epcot is the park that grew on me the most- When I was first there I didnt appreciate it- Now I love it My all time favorite LP meet happened at Epcot in 2001 -em
Originally Posted By RoadTrip We spend DAYS at Epcot. I really don't understand folks who say it isn't even a full day any more. In fact, if we spend 10 days at WDW, we probably end up in Epcot at least 7 of them. I'm sure that is partly because of the proximity to the Boardwalk Villas where we stay. But it is also because it is the park that offers more adult entertainment than any other after 8:00 PM. There is nothing grander in WDW than the Showcase at night. Great food, shopping, an adult beverage or two... it just doesn't get any better than that. And if you wait until 9:00 PM you are treated to Disney's finest fireworks show... Illuminations, Reflections of Earth. I really can't think of a park grander than Epcot. We visit during the day to see our Future World favorites. This usually takes a better part of a day. Sometimes we will continue on to the Showcase, sometimes not. But we WILL visit the Showcase. Many times. For us, it is the ultimate Disney experience. The experience that you can have on Disney property that you can't come CLOSE to anywhere else. I challenge anyone to dispute me on that.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<There is nothing grander in WDW than the Showcase at night.>> For much of the year, Epcot is the only park even _open_ at night.
