Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney <<All those 'old, boring, AA-filled, long, imersive' attractions pulled in a whole lot more people in the 80s and into the 90s, with much less advertising and marketing, than Test Track and Mission Space do now. That is a fact.>> "LuvDatDisney that isn't correct at all. There are a heap of other reasons why Epcot's attendance was higher in the 80s namely: 1) Still a novel theme park which only really reached build-out in the late 80s; 2) Less Disney competition. No MGM and DAK to cannabalise attendance; and 3) Less Orlando competition, period." I wouldn't say Epcot has still reached 'build out' as there is plenty of room for expansion. All of your points above are true, no doubt. BUT, Epcot's high attendance rolled right into the 1990s, only in the mid-90s when the park was growing stale due to no new attractions or updates did the crowds start to stay away. By then, you already had Disney-MGM and Universal and DAK was on the way. The only reason why the crowds returned to Epcot, briefly, was because of savvy marketing for the Millennium because there weren't new attractions built. Just a wand over SSE, a new Illuminations and the Tapestry processional. Oh, and can't forget about pin-trading. "People visited Epcot because it was one of only two theme parks to visit at WDW. There is no evidence whatsoever to show that it was the AA attractions that were drawing in the crowds (and I highly doubt that is the case)." People visited it for the experience it provided. The same reason they visit (or don't visit) any park. My point was that in the 80s and into the 90s you didn't see folks staying away from Epcot because it had all these long ride-thrus and the new-MTV generation (whatever that is, but the marketers love to pull that out) with a nano-second attention span craved thrills not Ward Kimball cutesy scenes about the history of transportation. "I've always loved Epcot and continue to do so. Although there have been some missteps such as Imagination I like the direction the park is heading. And to say it lacks education shows that no-one has ventured back into Innoventions recently. The addition of sections like Fantastic Plasticworks and Where's the Fire? are perfect examples of attractions that are great fun and educational. The changes at that pavilion have all been driven by one imagineer too." At least we can agree that Imagination was a major misstep. Sure, near the end of the first version's lifespan, it was almost always a walk-on, but tens of millions and two versions later, it pulls in smaller numbers now than the original did in '97 (it's last full year). And, yes, I have seen the numbers, so I'm not giving hyperbole. I have not seen the new additions to Innoventions. I had planned on getting to Epcot over the weekend, but it didn't happen. I will check them out. I haven't been on Disney's case about taking the educational aspects out of Epcot, either. My bigger beef is the fact they are making the park too Disney. I hope I'm making myself clear here. I'm speaking of the characters, the Kidcot stations were beautiful shops once existed, the blanding down of the whole experience. "Funny as I've seen and been told the complete opposite. CMs get genuinely excited when they see Brad in the park. I've never heard a single CM complain about him or the direction of the park. He has campagined hard for cash from WDW to re-jig the park and has been largely successful with Future World. He also has big plans for World Showcase if he gets the chance to do it." I'll take you and your word and you can take me at mine. I can only say I'm there more frequently than you because I live here. He has a very bad rep as a penny-pincher, which is why many CMs feel he got the job. I have heard he was a major reason why Soarin got built because he has more pull than the guy at the MK, who was also hoping for an addition at the same time. And I can't give him positive credit for FW when WoL is empty, Living Seas is falling apart, Imagination is a mess. Yes, Soarin was a no-brainer. Of course, paying for a unique Epcot only film experience was as well. And as for WS, it has gotten so staid and tired. As SJHYM has pointed out, Canada and France are showing movies that were filmed in 1980-81. Mexico hasn't had its boat ride touched since opening. And even the American Adventure could use an update (we've had some major tragedies since the last update that I think deserve notice). I hope you are right about plans for WS, if they include dealing with those items. Adding a couple of new pavillions wouldn't hurt either.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "I've actually heard TDLFan give positive comments once in awhile (when especially deserved). I haven't EVER heard LoveDatDisney give anything but negative though..." It's LuvDatDisney, first. And the accusation that all I post is negative is simply flat out not true. I LUV Disney. Get it? I am critical. But that's because I've been around since the beginning. I'm trying not to sound egotistcal (and I know how this will sound) but I've likely forgotten more about WDW than most folks here even know. Heck, I still LOVE EPCOT!!!!! Is that positive enough for you? I just know it's not the place it once was. I didn't start this thread, but the OP nailed exactly how I feel. I'm reasonably confident we're not the only ones either. Oh, and I must have missed some rule that you had to post how wonderful everything is at WDW to be accepted here.
Originally Posted By leemac <<only a Disney apologist>> Such the wrong phrase to use. Because I happen to love Epcot makes me an apologist? For what?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <And to say it lacks education shows that no-one has ventured back into Innoventions recently< uh not true -- I was there in June and more than 50% of the space that used to be full 15 years ago sits empty. There were so many items there that literally it was hard to walk around -- couple that with the morgue that is now the exit area for SSE and that is what we are talking about. This space was ALL used for edutainment, not the case today. Now I don't agree with some that it is not a full day park any more-- that simply is not true -it's just that it used to be a 2 full day park -- easily. In fact that major concern was getting to enjoy everything on trips back then.... And to say there's more competiton, while being true, there's also more than twice the on the grounds rooms with people staying at Disney also.
Originally Posted By leemac <<uh not true -- I was there in June and more than 50% of the space that used to be full 15 years ago sits empty. >> Look back at what was actually inside Communicore. There weren't that many attractions and they each took up a lot of space. Innoventions is more inclusive thanks to an open floor plan and has a better mixture of sites within. Communicore was largely an extension of SSE and as we are now in the age of communication and technology there isn't much point rehashing what people already know. Also look back at the Communicore list and you might notice that actually Epcot managed to miss out on most of the technological changes that dominated the 90s.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I will be at WDW the first weekend in January ( the weekend after New Years ). I can't wait. I plan on going to Epcot everyday for lunch or dinner.
Originally Posted By Jim_n_Ruth Epcot has to be a difficult park to manage or plan for. It's mission was to be educational. I think it still is. But it also has to be entertaining. A boring park will lose attendance. I guess the big concern is how to blend the two properly. Each country has it's own culture. So, there's education there. Spaceship earth is educational about the history of communication. Innoventions is educational. Heck, even illuminations offers something. There are twenty torches surrounding the world showcase lagoon. Each torch represents one century. The 21st torch appears and lights when the sphere opens. Education in trivia..! I learened that from a CM. Nice guy too. I'm wondering if maybe some of the complaints I read about Epcot are more sentimental in nature?
Originally Posted By Labuda "^^ I'm there for my big birthday on January 1!" Finally turning 30, eh, lee?
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: I believe someone asked--a while back--if my sisters and I might possibly be related to TDLFAN. The answer is no--but we wouldn't be the least bit ashamed to be a relative of his. Having met the dear heart--and even spent some nice times with him--we find him to be a delightful soul. ORWEN: He's not negative, either. He's actually a champion for the philosphies Uncle Walt, himself, held dear--such as giving the public more than they can ever see in just one visit--so they'll want to come back to your park again and again. ORDDU: And what he sees happening at Tokyo Disneyland--by comparison--causes him concern when the American parks are treated like poor little red-head step children in return. But there's nothing negative by what he sees. ORWEN: When the little boy in the Emperor's New Clothes told it like it was--by saying the king was actually 'naked'--was that being negative, too? ORDDU: Oh, I'm sure there were those who thought so. No doubt some wanted to impress the king by lying to him instead of telling him the truth. And that's what Current Management apologists do when they continue to defend so many of the bad decisions being made for the Disney theme parks today. ORWEN: But--thank goodness--there actually ARE brave and wise ducklings out there today--like TDLFAN and LuvDatDisney--who are willing to stand up for some principals of the past that a lot of others would just as soon sweep under the rug and forget about. Negative? Hardly! Like we said, they're champions for good quality entertainment that used to always be a Hallmark of the Disney Company. ORDDU: Even Mr. Eisner USED to be a champion for good quality entertainment. Then something went wrong. But to close one's eyes to what's wrong, now, is a personal choice--a personal choice my sisters and I choose NOT to make.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Man I wish I was 30 -- or heck 40 for that matter..........as Jimmy Buffett often says, put those milestones well astern a long time ago
Originally Posted By BlazesOfFire Ill be spending my 20th at Epcot on December 5th!! LOL...Darn right ill be spending my 30th there too A meet at Epcot would be great! Would love to walk around world showcase with people and chat (and wait for everyone outside of mission space lol) But I would not want to hang around those who would just walk around and say all the negative things. YOURE NO FUN!
Originally Posted By TDLFAN You are still 19? No wonder you don't get where I am coming from!!! You didn't experience the best years of WDW *and* EPCOT Center!!!
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>But I would not want to hang around those who would just walk around and say all the negative things. YOURE NO FUN! << Likewise, I don't hang out with bratty children in oversized strollers so you won't be seeing me either.
Originally Posted By MrToadWildRider “You don’t build it for yourself. You know what the people want and you build it for them.†-Walt Disney The people aren't the select few who are die-hard, old-school, very sentimental fans (not that those are negative traits just adjectives that may describe many people on this site) but the masses. And sadly this is what the masses want - while I'll always love the AA-dark rides and think of them as true Disney and miss them a lot of people thought they were somewhat boring. Times change and people want to be thrilled and fewer people want a slow moving history of transportation. My regret is that Disney couldn't find a way to have both the new and the old - but money IS an important factor despite what many on these boards seem to want to believe. If the parks don't evolve they will begin to lose money - especially with parks like UO nearby that incorporate thrills and somewhat magical experiences that in years past could only be experienced in a Disney park. I'm not saying UO is as magical as Disney, it's not, but it's still a great set of Parks and they are definite competition with WDW - I take IOA and UO over DAK with my week vacation as it is. As times change and people change and desires change parks HAVE to change or they die or atleast wither so without the Test Tracks and Mission: Spaces (sadly) there might not even be Disney Parks down the road. There are sacrifices a long term Disney fan has to endure (like Toad, WoM, and Horizons which I all miss dearly - and still think Mission:Space isn't good enough to kill Horizons :-\ ) to avoid having NO rides or parks in the future. Disney is a magic place but that doesn't mean that real world doesn't have it's tendrils wrapped around it. It's still a great park and some changes are just necessary and sentimentality aside the replacements are pretty great rides so one could argue it is a change for the better Although 20K -> Playground and JII -> JIYI are just bad...
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>The people aren't the select few who are die-hard, old-school, very sentimental fans (not that those are negative traits just adjectives that may describe many people on this site) but the masses. And sadly this is what the masses want - while I'll always love the AA-dark rides and think of them as true Disney and miss them a lot of people thought they were somewhat boring. Times change and people want to be thrilled and fewer people want a slow moving history of transportation. My regret is that Disney couldn't find a way to have both the new and the old - but money IS an important factor despite what many on these boards seem to want to believe. If the parks don't evolve they will begin to lose money<< Very well written statement. I fear for the future of theme parks since much of the entertainment is now provided via computers and the such... I mean.. in the 22nd century..why justify building a new Disneyland when you can have "Virtual MK" at home for your enjoyment?
Originally Posted By BlazesOfFire Um...I wasnt saying "youre no fun" to YOU TDLFan...that was for anyone who goes around pointing out the negative stuff. Of course, you come to mind first (apparently you thought so too!) but you said you liked Epcot in another thread so what gives. 19 or not...Ive been to Disney a lot. Ive lived here my whole life and that is THE family vacation spot and the spot where I can just spend a day. I have plenty of pictures and remember a lot, and am constantly looking up information on WDW, past AND present, so it's not like I do not know what I am talking about. Maybe I did not experience it as much, but so? Im enjoying it now!
Originally Posted By TDLFAN I am so very sure you would enjoy my war stories from around the MK if you only had the chance to walk it with me... Even Labuda is sold on that perk and keeps bugging me for more TDLFAN meets at WDW..
