Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: I can understand why some people like fast pass because there is an advantage to it for a few. But I'd prefer that there be the same advantage for EVERYONE--not just a select few. The few who benefit from it do so at the expense of the rest and such a 'dog eat dog' competition shouldn't have to be part of a visit to a Disney theme park.
Originally Posted By danyoung >A witch doesn't understand why this concept is so hard for others to grasp. If Fast pass had never been invented, guests wouldn't be any worse off without it.< I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand why people like FP and use it to their advantage. It used to be that if I didn't hit a super-headliner right at park opening, the only way I could ride would be by standing in a 30 to 90 minute line. With FP I can pick up a FP, go about my business, and then come back and wait in a much shorter line. I used to have to do Space Mountain first thing in the morning. Now I can enjoy other attractions, and use FP to do a Space Mountain ride later in the day. No, it's not a perfect system. I know I'm standing in a shorter line at the expense of others having to stand in a longer line. But I submit (and have stated since the beginning of FP) that the standby line is usually no longer than it used to be pre-FP. It just moves slower (which I admit can be a drag). And the system is available to everyone who will spend the 30 seconds it takes to understand it - it's in no way unfair to anyone.
Originally Posted By TheRedhead "But I'd prefer that there be the same advantage for EVERYONE" Everyone can get Fastpass.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Actually, Walt had the problem solved. It was called the Ticket Book. You sold it with a limited number of coupons good for the most popular attractions, thereby limiting demand on them. When you had used up your good tickets, you went and spent your afternoon at the Bathroom of Tomorrow and the House of the Future. Problem solved.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 A couple of thoughts on FP: After being in the parks several years now, you would be surprised at how many guests do not know or understand FP. I think this is even made tougher by the fact that most other theme parks charge for it. "No, it's not a perfect system. I know I'm standing in a shorter line at the expense of others having to stand in a longer line. But I submit (and have stated since the beginning of FP) that the standby line is usually no longer than it used to be pre-FP. It just moves slower (which I admit can be a drag)." Actually you answered the question in your own statement. With the standby line moving slower it automatically extends the wait time on that side. I have to disagree that standby wait times have not changed. I have worked in all four parks (three of them in mgmt) and I was there pre and post FP and I can tell you that the standby wait times are longer then they were. I understand the perception is that it hasn't changed but there are a lot of factors that go into that. Having worked on attractions during the latest FP system conversion, we saw that when FP was shut off for the change over the standby lines dropped. Some considerably such as any attraction that is a people eater. Soarin is a great example. It wont be true for every attraction. Some smaller capacity rides haven't changed much but I chalk that up to the "heck no" number. That is when based on perception a guest will look at the standby wait time and just say "heck no" and move on.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: And, no, not everyone can get a fastpass because there are only so many to be distributed a day. When they run out they are gone. Again, guests are put in a situation where they have to compete with each other in ways they never had to before there was a fast pass system.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<Enough people complained about long lines to warrant the creation of Fastpass. Not enough people complained about this perceived inequality to warrant the dismantling of Fastpass. >> Fastpass had NOTHING to do with guest complaints, and everything with Disney seeing dollar signs. The original intent behind Fastpass was to have people shopping and dining while waiting for their fastpass time to come around. Instead, people grab fastpasses and get in line for something else.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 WHICH is why the standby lines are long. FP changed guest flow through attractions and not as expected.
Originally Posted By danyoung >With the standby line moving slower it automatically extends the wait time on that side.< No, it doesn't. If the line is the same size, then yes, moving slower would make wait times longer. But if the line was much shorter, then the wait time would be the same. Now, is the FP standby line shorter? Well, you obviously have more experience with that than I do, and are in a better position to judge. My perception is that the wait times haven't increased that much if at all, but I only visit a few times a year. >...not everyone can get a fastpass because there are only so many to be distributed a day. When they run out they are gone.< Again, everyone has the same chances to get a FP. If someone wants to arrive at noon, then some rides will be out of FPs. But then pre-FP, if I wanted to arrive at noon I'd already see 60 minute lines - way longer than I want to wait for any attraction.
Originally Posted By tashajilek "Again, everyone has the same chances to get a FP. If someone wants to arrive at noon, then some rides will be out of FPs. But then pre-FP, if I wanted to arrive at noon I'd already see 60 minute lines - way longer than I want to wait for any attraction." That's not really true. Resort guests have an advantage of arriving a hour early everyday of their stay and now with next gen there will be even less available. It may not make a huge difference, but I'm sure on busy days it will make getting one even tougher. I like FP when I have one and it really sucks when I don't have one and they are all gone. I would happily see FP go and everyone have equal opportunity and possibly shorter lines.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 Actually Dan it does extend the wait time on the Standby side. Here is why: FP works on a ratio basis. Disney's position is that FP gets priority over Standby. The ratio favors the FP line. So at an attraction like Soarin the ratio is around 20 FP guests per 4ish Standby guests (it varies per attraction). It is a simple math equation. Look at it this way...fold a paper in half and number 1-50 on each side. Then cross off 20 on one side then 4 on the other. Then do it again and again. You can easily see why the Standby line gets long. If you have ever stood at the merge point at FP attractions you will see this is true. Anyone who has worked on a FP attraction will tell you that the merge position is terrible because standby guests constantly ask why the FP people get to go as they walk up while they wait. If you do that exercise again and do one list of 1-50 and cross off 24 and then 24 again you can see how much faster one line moves. I am sure that you have been on Standby lines that seem to crawl. This is why. I understand why people think that it's all the same but in reality it isn't. It is a much more complicated set of things then it first appears. Add to that the human factor of CM's, some who follow the ratio religiously and some who don't. Plus there is the ebb and flow of the number of guests on the FP side. There are times when there are no FP guests and then all of a sudden there are 40 people. And while the math is simple, the reality of operations makes it more complex. I was at the parks a couple of days ago and was on the FP side of the attraction and there were easily 50 people in front of me. It took us several minutes to get through the FP side but the people on the standby side hardly moved at all. Look at Space Mountain which uses one side as a FP side and one side as a Standby side. FP folks can walk up and move through the turnstiles but the Standby side moves slowly. I think I have a pretty good handle on FP from the operations point of view having worked several attractions and being involved in implementing the new system and I still don't understand it all. I get that people like it. There is nothing like walking up and getting on an attraction quickly. Especially when there is a long line of people waiting. My point is that many attractions with FP would have shorter waits in general without it. It is just a basic fact. But FP is about perceptions. The perception is that it saves time for the guest. I may be wrong about this and maybe Lee can confirm, but my understanding is operationally guests are not seeing any more attractions per visit with FP then before FP. Attractions per visit is what Disney uses to decide if a new attraction is needed in a park. In fact, the Fantasyland Expansion happened because the number of attractions visited in the MK had dipped below an acceptable number. IF FP was saving people time then you would see an increase in the number of attractions not a decrease. Having said all that I do want to say that one of the reasons I think the number of attractions visited has dropped is because of a change in the people who visit the parks. Look at Hall of Presidents for instance. It is an attraction that I like a lot. Most days it is running at a low percentage of its capacity. Logically one would think that if you have a FP for Peter Pan you could jump over to an attraction like Hall of Presidents and attendance would increase there, but the reality is that people bypass HOP. I think Disney has found that the park hopper ticket has allowed people the ability to cherry pick attractions in a park and then move on. This is especially true of return visitors. They come to a park, hit the big attractions and a couple other then move onto to another park. The theme park experience has changed and I think it will never go back.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip sjhym333... what you are forgetting is that without Fastpass all those people would be in the Standby line, and total wait would be just as long. The fifty pieces of paper analysis doesn't hold up.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I understand that FP makes the standby lines move slower. However, that description doesn't account for the human factor involved with getting in the standby line in the first place. Before FP, you saw how long a line was and decided if you thought the attraction was worth the wait. Similarly, if you're not using FP, you see how long the line is and decide if you think it's worth the wait. I suspect that most guests use a similar metric as they did in the past, and aren't suddenly willing to wait 2-3 times longer for the same attraction, making the overall standby queue time roughly the same. If this were not the case, there would be several hours worth of backlog within moments of the park opening, as only 20% (or whatever) of the attraction's capacity is available to the standby guests. That said, I sure can agree that it *feels like* the waits are a lot longer now with FP. I don't know if this is because the same guest can essentially wait in two queues at once (in person and with a FP), or if they really are longer, but it does seem to be a problem. But that's a rabbit hole we've been down countless times before, and we're all unlikely to change our opinions any time soon
Originally Posted By danyoung >Before FP, you saw how long a line was and decided if you thought the attraction was worth the wait. Similarly, if you're not using FP, you see how long the line is and decide if you think it's worth the wait.< This. A 60 minute wait is a 60 minute wait, whether it's pre-FP or with FP. As I've said, with FP the 60 minute queue moves slower. But it still takes the same 60 minutes.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub This discussion is interesting because it arouses strong opinions for/against FP still after all these years. Unfortunately a lot of the fun has been removed due to the new restrictions enforced. Soon we will have even more reasons to discuss. THe FP+ and the FP machines inserted into even more attractions than before and needing FP+ reservations for parades and fireworks. I liked manipulating the old system. That is part of the reason I have serious doubts about liking the new wristband tech. Currently I have been to WDW and DL 2-3 times and find I do not even need the FP even when I have made the effort to get them . The shortened window does not make it worthwhile to walk all the way thru the park to get that Toy Story pass and then return again. I just figure I might as well get in the line and hope the time posted is wrong!!!
Originally Posted By RoadTrip While I can understand the desire to "cheat the system", I hope you realize those actions helped create the problem of excessive standby waits. I found that late in the day standby lines moved far more slowly than at other times, and estimated wait times were often significantly understated. I'm sure a major factor in that was people like yourself who would ignore the return time, and then use them late in the day before leaving the park. I look forward to the new FP+ system... it can only be an improvement over what has existed in the past.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub I guess you could be considered correct except Disney is also manipulating in its own superior way. If you had visited the parks recently you would see a major difference in the concept. For starters Disney wants their customer/guest to believe the FP front of the line is free. Yet the prices for everything has skyrocketed along with overcrowding to the point of danger along with a decrease in customer service and amenities and operating hours. Next they have inserted FP machines on attractions that have never needed them to falsely make their guests believe this is an advantage. Finally they are roping off areas to accommodate the guest that has either paid for the dinner/show seating or that has paid for a deluxe package or that has been sold to a corporation for their special customer... The last time I saw Fantasmic at WDW is the last time I will ever see it , for FREE anyway. Your low class seating area selection is poor quality thanks to most of the entire seating area roped off for the deluxe customer. Do you still want to believe Disney treats every guest the same?
Originally Posted By sjhym333 "sjhym333... what you are forgetting is that without Fastpass all those people would be in the Standby line, and total wait would be just as long. The fifty pieces of paper analysis doesn't hold up." Yes, but what your forgetting is that there are now two lines at a FP attraction, one that gets priority. So if there were no FP's and more people were being pulled from the Standby line then are now, the Standby line would be shorter. At Soarin the wait time dropped by almost 40% when FP was shut off for a week. That is just the reality. And don't forget that when you have a FP you are basically standing in 2 lines. A standby line and a FP line while your holding that pass for somewhere else. FP is a reservation. That FP person has reserved that place in line. So if an attraction has a capacity of 1500 and there are 500 FP's given out for the hour, the standby line which used to pull 1500 people an hour now only pulls 1000 people an hour. THAT is why the Standby line is slower. "A 60 minute wait is a 60 minute wait, whether it's pre-FP or with FP. As I've said, with FP the 60 minute queue moves slower. But it still takes the same 60 minutes." True, but it is an inflated 60 minutes. It could drop to 30-40 minutes without FP.
Originally Posted By danyoung As I've already said, your experience is probably better informed than mine. All I know is that FP works very well for me, and I have never once felt that I was entitled or superior in any way. I simply know how to use the system as it's offered, the same as any other individual or family or group, even the first timers.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 I know that I won't change anyone's mind and it really doesn't matter. FP is here to stay. Use it and enjoy it.
