Originally Posted By danyoung >There is no doubt that Fast Pass has made standby lines much longer but the lines at "E" ticket attractions have always been long for the most part.< I wouldn't say longer, just slower. And Mike, I know vbdad is going for drama with his points. But as you probably know I agree with him. And I'll throw it back at you, with a why can't you understand this simple point. Yes, a standby line will move slower when FP is in use. But the attraction capacity hasn't changed. If it used to do 1500 people an hour, it'll still do that with FP. And if a queue pre-FP was an hour long, and if it's an hour long with FP, then people without FP will be waiting THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME. It just seems longer cuz the line is moving slower, and that's a legitimate beef, I'll admit. But from my experience, overall FP does not in any way make the standby line LONGER (i.e., more people in line). The same people who used to pass on a 90 minute line will do the same now. People's personal thresholds have not changed. I'll wait 30 minutes for a ride - I won't wait 60.
Originally Posted By kpwdwfan I stand corrected, poor choice of wording. Slower is right, I agree completely, rider capacity has not been affected by fast pass. 30 to 45 minutes is an acceptable wait time for me but anymore than that with two six-year-olds can be difficult. But then again I'm lucky enough to travel to WDW a couple of times a year and I'm willing to bypass long lines for the sake of my sanity.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >> wouldn't say longer, just slower. And Mike, I know vbdad is going for drama with his points. But as you probably know I agree with him. And I'll throw it back at you, with a why can't you understand this simple point.<< I'm more than happy to continue on for days arguing and reading others points, but I don't know how much farther you and I can go Dan if you don't acknowledge or at least outright say that you disagree with my continued point that queue's with FP are slower AND TAKE LONGER. If you disagree that is fine, I have no hard feelings at all. No emotion. So please don't misinterpret, but I don't know if you are disagreeing to my many examples or simply repeating "not longer". Maybe I'm not being clear, but I can't continue on with various discussions if people won't except a concept that the creator of FP, whoever he is, would even acknowledge. 400 people line before FP has a SHORTER wait than a 400 people line after FP. So a standby wait with a FP attraction now moves slower AND takes longer. >>Yes, a standby line will move slower when FP is in use.<< Agreed. >>But the attraction capacity hasn't changed.<< Agreed. Been screaming this for six years. >>If it used to do 1500 people an hour, it'll still do that with FP.<< Yes. Agreed. >>And if a queue pre-FP was an hour long, and if it's an hour long with FP, then people without FP will be waiting THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME.<< BAM. This is our problem. Our miscommunication. Yes, no doubt that someone who stands in line for 60 minutes in 1929 and someone else who stands in a line for 60 minutes in 2012 are both standing in 60 minutes lines. The problem is that say that the line for Fourth of July 1997 at 8:32 PM for Splash Mountain would wait longer for Fourth of July 2004 at 8:32 PM if no one left or was added to that line. With FP people must wait LONGER with the same relative size crowd in standby. The people in standby have not changed, the time has. So in Summer 2004 if Space Mountain still has that same old 60 minute wait that it always has. That you and I always have to endure. Yes, on the surface the wait hasn't changed. But less people make up that 60 minute wait because others are now using FP. Those that can't or won't use FP now must wait longer for those who did. Waits have become longer with the same amount of people getting into line. Waits have stayed the same EVEN WITH LESS people getting into the line. Hope that helps. I really, really do. >> It just seems longer cuz the line is moving slower, and that's a legitimate beef, I'll admit.<< No. See above. But yes to the fact that the pace of the line is still a negative, a smaller one, but still a negative. >> But from my experience, overall FP does not in any way make the standby line LONGER (i.e., more people in line). The same people who used to pass on a 90 minute line will do the same now.<< YES! That is the threshold. The threshold has not increased, if anything with FP and peoples' familiarity with the attactions, the threshold has DECREASED. Yet these waits keep popping up! Why? Because of FP! SEE!!!???!!! So with lower thresholds for waiting, the wait times haven't improved when these attractions were more new, there were less attractions in all of WDW, and there was no FP. IT'S BECAUSE the standby waits are the same as before, but with less people. Lower thresholds keep people from entering the standby waits, but the standby waits are consistent or larger than years past. >> People's personal thresholds have not changed. I'll wait 30 minutes for a ride - I won't wait 60.<< See above. If anything they have gone down.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I stand corrected, poor choice of wording. Slower is right, I agree completely<< Don't stand corrected if you can help it, I believe you are correct in saying slower and longer. To each their own.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>The problem is that say that the line for Fourth of July 1997 at 8:32 PM for Splash Mountain would wait longer for Fourth of July 2004 at 8:32 PM if no one left or was added to that line.<< Ick. That's not what I meant. The problem is that the line for Fourth of July 1997 at 8:32 PM for Splash Mountain would wait LESS TIME than for Fourth of July 2004 at 8:32 PM if no one left or was added to that line.
Originally Posted By danyoung Hey Mike, I've been enjoying this. Thanks for the lively discussion! >but I don't know how much farther you and I can go Dan if you don't acknowledge or at least outright say that you disagree with my continued point that queue's with FP are slower AND TAKE LONGER.< I absolutely agree with this. You weren't including the word "TAKE" earlier. The lines themselves aren't longer, but they do take longer for fewer people. Yes, that's simple logic (& I'm a simple guy!). >With FP people must wait LONGER with the same relative size crowd in standby. The people in standby have not changed, the time has.< Yes, you are correct. 400 people pre-FP will not wait as long as 400 people with FP. But I don't see why that's an important stat, as the situation has changed. The critical fact is that the same number of people are getting through to the ride in both situations. The standby line may take 3 times as long, but it's 1/3 the size. And I don't think the size of the FP line is determined by FP at all. I think people will make the same choices that they always have. They go by Space Mtn and see a 60 minute wait, and depending on their own preferences they'll either get in line or not get in line. It makes no difference at that point whether you have 1,600 people in front of you or 400. The operative fact is the big SIX ZERO in the red led sign. And my contention is that this number, the overall wait for the average person, hasn't changed with FP. It was 60 minutes before, and it's 60 minutes now. It just goes a lot slower.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Hey Mike, I've been enjoying this. Thanks for the lively discussion! >but I don't know how much farther you and I can go Dan if you don't acknowledge or at least outright say that you disagree with my continued point that queue's with FP are slower AND TAKE LONGER.< I absolutely agree with this. You weren't including the word "TAKE" earlier. The lines themselves aren't longer, but they do take longer for fewer people. Yes, that's simple logic (& I'm a simple guy!).<< AHHH!!! See!! All I needed was to use the word TAKE. Frustrating! And I agree, a very pleasant discussion.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Yes, you are correct. 400 people pre-FP will not wait as long as 400 people with FP. But I don't see why that's an important stat, as the situation has changed. The critical fact is that the same number of people are getting through to the ride in both situations. The standby line may take 3 times as long, but it's 1/3 the size. And I don't think the size of the FP line is determined by FP at all. I think people will make the same choices that they always have. They go by Space Mtn and see a 60 minute wait, and depending on their own preferences they'll either get in line or not get in line. It makes no difference at that point whether you have 1,600 people in front of you or 400. The operative fact is the big SIX ZERO in the red led sign. And my contention is that this number, the overall wait for the average person, hasn't changed with FP. It was 60 minutes before, and it's 60 minutes now. It just goes a lot slower.<< And I agree with all of this. Other than the increased 1 for 1 standby waits not being important. I think it is at the heart of why FP is bad. Why it redistributes wait times to the advantage of some. -And here is where the argument comes full circle and we start again!
Originally Posted By danyoung >And I agree with all of this. Other than the increased 1 for 1 standby waits not being important. I think it is at the heart of why FP is bad. Why it redistributes wait times to the advantage of some.< I'm all for the argument that currently people waiting in standby are waiting in much slower moving lines. And subjectivly that can be a real pain. But I see nothing to indicate that they're waitng any longer amount of time now than then. As has been said many times, a 60 minute wait is a 60 minute wait. It only feels longer when you're moving at a snail's pace.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Nothing to add just amused by the passion FP brews ... too bad folks weren't as passionate by thing affecting WDW of much more importance.
Originally Posted By ChiMike sigh. Here we go. But there is more to it than the line moving at a slower pace. Case in point. Prior to FP there were not daily, weekly, outbreaks of verbal assault because people were whizzing by. Unneccessary bad show that borders on bad safty. Case in point. Before FP people showing up at 8:00 at night at Test Track might only have to decide if a 60 minute wait is worth it rather than a 90 minute wait because of FP. See? This is what I tried to jib at on the other thread. It's easy to discuss theories or hypotheticals, but in practice, on the ground, the standby lines are much worse on the guests than they were prior to FP. There wasn't a 2-tier system to make two groups of guests. It was an even playing field where each guest was treated equally at all times regardless of circumstance or schedule. This is what can't be refuted because it isn't opinion, it is history. Things have changed. Some like the advantage due to their own agenda. Others, a good portion being folks who have to operate the system, detest it. >>But I see nothing to indicate that they're waitng any longer amount of time now than then.<< To use your train of thought. Somebody who chooses to wait 90 minutes must wait 90 minutes even if they were waiting at the DMV. FP plays no effect. But the attractions do not operate on a schedule (well unless you count the shows). The line moves not because it is 9:00 so 10 more people may load. The line moves because people in front fill capacity on a cycling attraction.. SO, while someone might have choosen to stand in a 90 minute line regardless of FP. They are now competing for that front of the load space with people who aren't physically in a line. If a parade ends and an attraction sees a spike of FP returns that 90 minute wait increases. That wouldn't happen to someone already in line under the old ways of doing things. Again reality vs. theory for purposes of defense. If an attraction breaks down, any FP user with an old unused ticket may re-enter the line and jump ahead of those who were waiting their original time PLUS the breakdown time period. Again reality. So, this nice, neat, little theory that the everyone who takes a FP WOULD BE in standby otherwise is ineffective. The truth through the various realities mentioned above is: A) Not everyone who would have taken a FP for MK's Pooh would have waited in the standby line prior to FP. FP has opened the door for MORE riders than the attraction would have received under similiar circumstances without FP. Thus, the standby lines WITH FP do "wait longer amounts of time then than" B) Because of breakdowns, spikes in FP returns, etc. just because a person would have waited 90 minutes regardless doesn't mean that now there is a possibility of them waiting longer under the same circumstances than before FP. This is why I can't agree with your point on this, because it doesn't fit the reality of so many situations. Throw in the fact that you have po'ed guests in line and queues are misused and the whole thing is one big mess. In theory it's nice to think that every FP user of every FP attraction would be standing in line right next to you, that the line would have been 90 minutes whether the person is virtually there or not, but it isn't the reality.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Nothing to add just amused by the passion FP brews ... too bad folks weren't as passionate by thing affecting WDW of much more importance.<< Oh, you know me, I certainly am. It's just you don't get many who would argue that, yeah, it stinks that they have less custodial.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>just because a person would have waited 90 minutes regardless doesn't mean that now there is a possibility of them waiting longer under the same circumstances than before FP.<< just because a person would have waited 90 minutes regardless, doesn't mean that now there is NOT a possibility of them waiting longer under the same circumstances than before FP.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Oh, you know me, I certainly am. It's just you don't get many who would argue that, yeah, it stinks that they have less custodial.>> I know you are. Heck, I know VBDAD and Danny are too. I just see how this thread has become a FP one and there's another one with well over 200 posts, yet you don't see anyone discussing Meg Crofton or Ed Grier being elevated into positions they have no business being in and what that says about the games Jay Rasulo is playing to hold on to his job. Then I realize the folks monitoring these sites are very happy when they read the fans going in circles discussing the merits of FP instead of raising hell about the sheer incompetence that permeates the parks and resorts division of TWDC.
Originally Posted By danyoung Wow, lots of new points, and I have 45 minutes to kill before heading home and mixing a nice strong martini. So here goes, storm troopers - >Prior to FP there were not daily, weekly, outbreaks of verbal assault because people were whizzing by. Unneccessary bad show that borders on bad safty.< No disagreement, other than to say that I personally have not witnessed any bad behavior because of FP. I'll admit to the possibility, even the probability. But I haven't noticed it at all. >Before FP people showing up at 8:00 at night at Test Track might only have to decide if a 60 minute wait is worth it rather than a 90 minute wait because of FP.< Now we're going back to the point of the standby lines actually being longer with FP or not. Yet I'll admit that your point is valid at the end of a day. But that's a small daypart, and not of great impact on the overall day's operation. I'd still argue that at the end of any given day a popular attraction will have longer lines as many people try to get in one more ride. > If a parade ends and an attraction sees a spike of FP returns that 90 minute wait increases. That wouldn't happen to someone already in line under the old ways of doing things.< Agreed. And this is due to the one big flaw in the system - the fact that Disney doesn't enforce the end time limit on your FP. If they did, you'd have an even 1,200 people an hour coming in with FP and 400 per hour without, equivalent to the 1,600 people who would have ridden pre-FP (assuming a 60 minute line). Of course, with or without FP, there will be times when a parade gets out or a show finishes when the line will increase for a short time. But again, this was the same pre-FP. And I'd think that in this case it would make the FP line longer, but wulddn't really effect the standby line, assuming a CM is doing his job correctly. And I think that's a big assumption - I don't think a CM should just let whoever comes up in the FP line through immediately. It should be a balance of 3 to 1 (or whatever), and should stay consistent even if the FP line gets longer. >If an attraction breaks down, any FP user with an old unused ticket may re-enter the line and jump ahead of those who were waiting their original time PLUS the breakdown time period.< True, and a flaw in the system. If a ride was down for 4 hours, when it opens you now have all those tickets able to jump in line along with those with current FP's. I'm not sure what the solution would be. Perhaps it would be the most fair to keep to the ending time on the ticket, regardless of whether the attraction is running or not. It's no different than any regular non-FP person wanting to ride and finding out that the ride is down. Come back later and try again. Assuming FP's were still available the FP holder could maybe get a new FP and come back later. A bit inconvenient, but still more fair than just letting them come back as soon as the ride is back online. >Not everyone who would have taken a FP for MK's Pooh would have waited in the standby line prior to FP. FP has opened the door for MORE riders than the attraction would have received under similiar circumstances without FP.< I agree and I don't. Yes, I wouldn't be going out of my way to ride Pooh with a 45 minute wait, and I'll bet many other non-kids are the same. But as long as the ride is running at capacity, then the same number of people are riding. Without FP, the line might be 45 minutes long, and I won't ride. With FP, the line might be 45 minutes long and I'll just get a FP and ride later. Again, no real difference. Other than the special circumstances that you outlined above, the only real hard difference I see is that those in standby will move in slower lines. And that's a legitimate problem. But as I've said repeatedly, as long as they have the same option as I do to use the FP, then there is no inequity. They may get ticked at their slow movement, but that's just further incentive to get a FP next time.
Originally Posted By danyoung >...yet you don't see anyone discussing Meg Crofton or Ed Grier being elevated into positions they have no business being in and what that says about the games Jay Rasulo is playing to hold on to his job.< I care very deeply about these issues. But I have absolutely no inside knowledge, and can offer nothing substantive in a discussion. But I'm reading everything I can find, and am as always cautiously optimistic about the future.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I care very deeply about these issues. But I have absolutely no inside knowledge, and can offer nothing substantive in a discussion. But I'm reading everything I can find, and am as always cautiously optimistic about the future.>> You're one of those half-full guys, right Dan? (I won't say what you may be full of!) But Al Lutz had an interesting update on his site today. It didn't have any information that I wasn't aware of, but you might find it a good read. It does support what I've been saying here since Ed replaced Matt in Anaheim and Meg Crofton came out of her Team Disney back office to take the helm in Orlando though ... that's Jay Rasulo's favorite Disney character is Gepetto!
Originally Posted By danyoung ^^ I read it, and I'll definitely say that as much as I'm a half-full guy (or maybe a quarter-full???), Al is absoultely a half-empty guy! The wild card in all of that is Lasseter, how much pull he actually will have in DL and in the company, and when and if his attention turns to WDW.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Everything I've heard is that John's parks interest lies in Anaheim. So Al's annecdote about John's hands-on approach to make sure the sub CMs had new expensive costumes, while bland crap was OK for Epcot rings true to me. WDW needs as much or more help than DL ... certainly the MK needs major TLC ...
Originally Posted By danyoung It's also a a pretty interesting indication that Lasseter has some fairly powerful authority, if he can come in and dictate uniforms. And that's a good sign!
