Originally Posted By jonvn yes, I'm sure you'll tell me that the bible is full of instructions about rosary beads, statues to saints, and how the pope is infallible. I read it and I know what it says. You can pretend to have whatever ritual you want. From an outside vantage point the more ritual the further from what Jesus taught. That would make the Roman Catholic church about as far away from your supposed god's teachings as you could get. But hey, I'm not the first person who had these sorts of ideas. Go take it up with Martin Luther. He seems to have put more thought in it than I did.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<That's the "christian" definition.>> Negative Captain. That's Martin Luther's definition. <<But what makes you a christian? Belief in Christ as your savior.>> While simplistic, that is a better definition.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<yes, I'm sure you'll tell me that the bible is full of instructions about rosary beads, statues to saints, and how the pope is infallible. I read it and I know what it says.>> I presume then that you are familiar with the passage where Peter is given the keys and told that what he holds bound is bound? Please tell me where the passage is where the disciples are told that only faith is required and that obedience to God is not. I recall a passage where Jesus warns that not everyone who accepts him as Lord will enter the kingdom, and that only those who obey the Father will enter.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Negative Captain. That's Martin Luther's definition." And he's not a christian, I suppose. That's fine. He is an excommunicated heretic, after all. It's also what's simply written in the bible. "While simplistic, that is a better definition." Since that's what I said before, then you really should have no objection, other than a need to defend a very corrupt catholic church.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I presume then that you are familiar with the passage where Peter is given the keys and told that what he holds bound is bound?" I'm sorry, would that be in the Vulgate version of the Bible, which conveniently also has a different version of the 10 commandments as well? It's ok. I don't really care. People make up whatever religion they want that suits them. So if you want to count beads like some neanderthal or make up statues of saints to pray to or whatever, I really don't care. "Please tell me where the passage is where the disciples are told that only faith is required and that obedience to God is not." Disobedience to God is a sin. Belief in Jesus washes away sin and is forgiven. Therefore, disobedience to god is not an impediment to heaven. As for your passage, so what? The only sin that can not be forgiven is blaspheming the holy spirit, whatever that is. So I suppose that someone who does believe in jesus blasphemes the holy spirit, he won't get the big cupie doll of the keys to heaven after he drops dead. So, fine. It all works out for you. Now go spin around in a circle seven times and face north by northwest, and say "Thank you god for my chocolate milk and cookies" 11 times. Only by that will you ever get to see god and have eternal pizza with only the best toppings of your own personal choice.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>yes, I'm sure you'll tell me that the bible is full of instructions about rosary beads, statues to saints, and how the pope is infallible.<< Actually, I was talking about the part where it says that if you simply believe that Jesus is your savior, then that's it...free ticket to heaven. My point is that the Bible does NOT say that. It says that our judgement will be, in part, based on what we have done. As to the Rosary, that is a private devotion that is not mandated to any Catholic by the Church. In fact, only Latin Rite Catholics pray the Rosary. Statues are reminders of those who went before us and when people pray before them, we aren't praying to the statue but to the person represented by the statue. Finally, fkurucz pointed out, papal authority and the authority of the Church were established by Christ Himself. >>I read it and I know what it says.<< You only know what you think it says. Without the historical context, the words are meaningless. >>You can pretend to have whatever ritual you want. From an outside vantage point the more ritual the further from what Jesus taught. That would make the Roman Catholic church about as far away from your supposed god's teachings as you could get.<< The purpose of liturgy, what you call ritual, is to instruct into what has always been believed by Christians from the very beginning. While Catholics, especially the Latin Rite, are known for being "ritualistic," we have nothing on our brethren in the various Eastern Rites of the Cahtolic Church and the Orthodox Churches. >>But hey, I'm not the first person who had these sorts of ideas. Go take it up with Martin Luther. He seems to have put more thought in it than I did.<< As a former Lutheran, I think I can speak to Luther a bit more than you, a non Christian, could. Luther had serious problems with scrupulosity and couldn't deal with the fact that sins he confessed and absolved were actually forgiven. He also couldn't deal with the fact that he was not always sinning at every moment, even without knowing it. He used to drive his confessors crazy because he'd leave the confessional and dive back in because he'd have a stray thought. It's no wonder he became so ardently "sola fide" in his theology. That he also threw out seven books of the Old Testament and tried to throw out some New Testament books without any authority to do so kinda doesn't help his credibility.
Originally Posted By jonvn "My point is that the Bible does NOT say that. It says that our judgement will be, in part, based on what we have done." Where? "As to the Rosary, that is a private devotion that is not mandated to any Catholic by the Church." I honestly could not care less what your church teaches you. Go count some beads. "Without the historical context, the words are meaningless." You really don't know what I know or don't know, or what I've studied or not studied, nor why. Thank you. "The purpose of liturgy, what you call ritual" The purpose is to give people things to do and to control them. Of course there is an "official" explanation for everything that sounds good. "I think I can speak to Luther a bit more than you, a non Christian, could." Actually, I don't think you can, because you are caught up in believing a fantasy of endless ritual, ilogical beliefs, and empty devotion to a corrupt authority. Your ideas on what happened historically are informed by that and are not really particularly valid.
Originally Posted By jonvn I suggest you stop trying to argue with me about your ridiculous belief structure. I'm not interested, and it has little meaning beyond whatever giant set of rationalizations you've set up for yourself. Beads. They're waiting for you.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Hateful and bigoted much?" Coming from the guy who said he doesn't know if his grandmother is going to hell? It's a ocmpliment. I am not bigoted towards any person. I do find certain belief systems beyond redemption and beneath contempt. If you wish to engage me in discussing them, then you will find that to be my opinion. You can go right ahead and do whatever you want, I don't care as long as it doesn't bother me (of course for many centuries it DID bother people like me). But if you're going to sit there and try to justify your massive pile of nonsense, I'm not going to be very interested in hearing gibberish. If I want to hear fantasy filled rubbish, I can go read a comic book. They have pictures at least.
Originally Posted By cmpaley "Hateful and bigoted much?" Coming from the guy who said he doesn't know if his grandmother is going to hell? It's a ocmpliment.<< Taken out of context, you would say so, eh? >>I am not bigoted towards any person. I do find certain belief systems beyond redemption and beneath contempt. If you wish to engage me in discussing them, then you will find that to be my opinion. You can go right ahead and do whatever you want, I don't care as long as it doesn't bother me (of course for many centuries it DID bother people like me). But if you're going to sit there and try to justify your massive pile of nonsense, I'm not going to be very interested in hearing gibberish.<< Thus, proving that you are hateful and bigoted. It doesn't make sense to ME, so I hate those who believe it and believe they are below contempt. >>If I want to hear fantasy filled rubbish, I can go read a comic book. They have pictures at least.<< Which, apparently, would be more appropriate to the maturity level of respect you show toward those you disagree with.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Thus, proving that you are hateful and bigoted." It's gotten to the point where people don't even know what the words mean. I think your belief system is imbecilic. It doesn't mean I hate you, or hate you for having them. I have no respect for them whatsoever, and feel that they are harmful and worthless. That does not, however, extend to you, the victim of it. Unless and until you do what so many before have done, and use it as an excuse to oppress and engage in violence. Then I will not be all that tolerant of you as a person. Until them, you simply are a sadly deluded individual who has put a lot of energy into something utterly devoid of use or meaning.
Originally Posted By jdub I think heaven is a human construct, and that "heaven" and "hell" and all things in between are all here on earth. Falwell was succesful at what he did, and prosperous--and therefore in his own heaven. Of course, he also made life hell for many other people.
