Originally Posted By jonvn "When did Islam enter the discussion?" Explain the difference between Islam and the idea that someone, under certain conditions would be forever tortured by fire. What makes one better than the other?
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "Why? Would you rather have some sort of faith where there is no right or wrong?" Why should faith be required to know right and wrong? Faith is not required to have morals.
Originally Posted By jonvn Criminy, this thing needs an edit function.... Anyway, continuing: In this very topic. About a dead guy. I have little faith in religious matters, and haven't really said a bad word about the person here. Others have. I think it's not a good thing to speak ill of the dead, that's my morals. Others, who proclaim their religiosity suggest that torment awaits them. Or others have said bad things. What has any of this to do with faith? Nothing.
Originally Posted By jonvn Here's just another example of what I was talking about. Here is this guy, who wants to become a minister. Probably has a lot of faith, religious, all that. And he put his daughter in a microwave oven and burned her. <a href="http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou070517_jj_microwavebaby.7a6cdced.html" target="_blank">http://www.khou.com/topstories /stories/khou070517_jj_microwavebaby.7a6cdced.html</a> Morals. Yeah, religion gives you morals and teaches you right from wrong.
Originally Posted By jonvn I didn't say it was typical. Although you do seem to see a lot of religious people pulling stunts like this. Religion and morality have nothing to do with each other. That's the point.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Religion and morality have nothing to do with each other. That's the point. << I agree with you. But we're seeing it from the perspective of reasonably intelligent and self sufficient people. I wonder if some people of weaker will find their strength and their morality from their religion. These people need strong leadership and structure - someone to tell them what to think, what to believe, how to live, and the difference between right and wrong. And they don't like it when other people don't share their beliefs. They want the ten commandments in every classroom and public prayer and other proclamations of piety. The "non-believers" represent the path not taken by them, and often relegate them to "outsiders". It's ironic that something that's supposed to be about love and peace ends up being so polarizing. At the GOP debate this week, as each candidate was introduced the TV screen had a superimposed list of the stats - age, religion, family, previous office held. It was an eyebrow raiser for me. First of all, it's the religious people who constantly say that a person's religion shouldn't be a factor in deciding - yet it's the second-most important stat on their own self-inflicted bio - next to "family", and we all know what that's code for. And once again, they spent a great deal of time establishing their anti-abortion credentials with each one being more emphatic than the next - with the notable exception of guiliani, who only recently decided that he can't hide from his career-long pro-choice stance. I highly doubt you'd see graphics of candidates categorized by their faith at a democratic event - unless maybe it was being put on by fox news. It's an offensive practice and I haven't seen anyone else remark about it anywhere. And since I'm rambling - let me say something about those knuckleheads out at fort dix. These are not "terrorists", okay? The candidates in the debate invoked these wannabes about half a dozen times - as a scare tactic - that works particularly well with republicans. They're patently exploiting this story as a kind of campaign tactic, conveniently ignoring the reality that there was never any real danger from these clowns. I think (and I hope) that we're witnessing the disintegration of the republican party. This should be fun to watch.
Originally Posted By ClintFlint2 ///Morals. Yeah, religion gives you morals and teaches you right from wrong/// ///you do seem to see a lot of religious people pulling stunts like this/// Like mirowaving people You can knock that stuff off right now. I don't play that.
Originally Posted By jonvn "These people need strong leadership and structure" They probably do. It's hard to be a grown up sometimes, and life sometimes kicks you around and it helps some people to have that. But whether it is moral or not? I see zero connection. Lots of claims are made, but what it comes down to is whatever that person wants to do anyway. They then rationalize it by using their religion. That's how it always goes.
Originally Posted By ClintFlint2 ////And they don't like it when other people don't share their beliefs./// like you a bit of hypocrisy if you ask me
Originally Posted By Disneyman55 >>I didn't say it was typical. Although you do seem to see a lot of religious people pulling stunts like this. Religion and morality have nothing to do with each other. That's the point.<< Jonvn, you are above that revolting post. To understand how wrong spirited that statement was, just replace the words religious people with the word black and you will see that post for what it is.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Here's just another example of what I was talking about. Here is this guy, who wants to become a minister. Probably has a lot of faith, religious, all that. And he put his daughter in a microwave oven and burned her.>> That has more to do with his being from Arkansas than the fact that he toys with the idea of being a preacher. ;-) Just kidding... don't go nuts on me. My hero Slick Willy is from Arkansas too.
Originally Posted By gadzuux The wit and wisdom of the most reverend falwell - "AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." "The abortionists have got to bear some burden for [the attacks of Sept. 11] because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'" "If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being." "Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions." "I listen to feminists and all these radical gals -- most of them are failures. They've blown it. Some of them have been married, but they married some Casper Milquetoast who asked permission to go to the bathroom. These women just need a man in the house. That's all they need. Most of the feminists need a man to tell them what time of day it is and to lead them home. And they blew it and they're mad at all men. Feminists hate men. They're sexist. They hate men -- that's their problem." "When you have a godly husband, a godly wife, children who respect their parents and who are loved by their parents, who provide for those children their physical and spiritual and material needs, lovingly, you have the ideal unit." "The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews." "I am saying pornography hurts anyone who reads it -- garbage in, garbage out." "I am such a strong admirer and supporter of George W. Bush that if he suggested eliminating the income tax or doubling it, I would vote yes on first blush." "I believe that global warming is a myth. And so, therefore, I have no conscience problems at all and I'm going to buy a Suburban next time." "It is God's planet -- and he's taking care of it. And I don't believe that anything we do will raise or lower the temperature one point." "I truly cannot imagine men with men, women with women, doing what they were not physically created to do, without abnormal stress and misbehavior." "It appears that America's anti-Biblical feminist movement is at last dying, thank God, and is possibly being replaced by a Christ-centered men's movement which may become the foundation for a desperately needed national spiritual awakening." "There's been a concerted effort to steal Christmas." "I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!" "The First Amendment is not without limits." "Someone must not be afraid to say, 'moral perversion is wrong.' If we do not act now, homosexuals will 'own' America! If you and I do not speak up now, this homosexual steamroller will literally crush all decent men, women, and children who get in its way ... and our nation will pay a terrible price!" "If he's going to be the counterfeit of Christ, [the Antichrist] has to be Jewish. The only thing we know is he must be male and Jewish." "The argument that making contraceptives available to young people would prevent teen pregnancies is ridiculous. That's like offering a cookbook as a cure to people who are trying to lose weight." "The whole global warming thing is created to destroy America's free enterprise system and our economic stability." "You'll be riding along in an automobile. You'll be the driver perhaps. You're a Christian. There'll be several people in the automobile with you, maybe someone who is not a Christian. When the trumpet sounds you and the other born-again believers in that automobile will be instantly caught away -- you will disappear, leaving behind only your clothes and physical things that cannot inherit eternal life. That unsaved person or persons in the automobile will suddenly be startled to find the car suddenly somewhere crashes. ... Other cars on the highway driven by believers will suddenly be out of control and stark pandemonium will occur on ... every highway in the world where Christians are caught away from the drivers wheel." (from Falwell's pamphlet "Nuclear War and the Second Coming of Christ") "God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve." "You know when I see somebody burning the flag, I'm a Baptist preacher I'm not a Mennonite, I feel it's my obligation to whip him. In the name of the Lord, of course. I feel it's my obligation to whip him, and if I can't do it then I look up some of my athletes to help me. But, as long as at 72 I can handle most of the jobs I do it myself, and I don't think it's un-spiritual. When I, when I, when I hear somebody talking about our military and ridiculing and saying terrible things about our President, I'm thinking you know just a little bit of that and I believe the Lord would forgive me if I popped him." "The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etcetera." "The National Organization for Women (NOW) is the National Order of Witches." "God doesn't listen to Jews." "Tinky Winky is gay."
Originally Posted By jonvn "To understand how wrong spirited that statement was, just replace the words religious people with the word black and you will see that post for what it is." No. You are incorrect. Being black is not the same thing as being a "religious" person. You are born black, and it does not define anything about you other than skin color and how you want it to define you. A religious person takes on the ideas and beliefs of a certain religion in a totally voluntary manner. I would suggest that you should work on your analogies a bit.
Originally Posted By DAR <<And since I'm rambling - let me say something about those knuckleheads out at fort dix. These are not "terrorists", okay? The candidates in the debate invoked these wannabes about half a dozen times - as a scare tactic - that works particularly well with republicans. They're patently exploiting this story as a kind of campaign tactic, conveniently ignoring the reality that there was never any real danger from these clowns.>> So let's ignore every potential threat that is out there, then one happens you can place blame. Yeah that's really convienent. Of course if a military base was ever attacked you wouldn't care because you loathe the military.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Post 109, wow, I forgot about some of those things he said. I'll comment on a few. "If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being." Pretty darn arrogant, and not at all what the Bible says... "Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions." That explains a LOT...sheesh! "I listen to feminists and all these radical gals -- most of them are failures. They've blown it. Some of them have been married, but they married some Casper Milquetoast who asked permission to go to the bathroom. These women just need a man in the house. That's all they need. Most of the feminists need a man to tell them what time of day it is and to lead them home. And they blew it and they're mad at all men. Feminists hate men. They're sexist. They hate men -- that's their problem." Yeah, that must be it, they just need a man! "I believe that global warming is a myth. And so, therefore, I have no conscience problems at all and I'm going to buy a Suburban next time." "It is God's planet -- and he's taking care of it. And I don't believe that anything we do will raise or lower the temperature one point." Wow, these two statements are so against what the Bible says that I'm surprised he didn't get more flack for that. The Bible specifically says that we are the stewards of the planet. God left us in charge of his creation and we are to take care of it. What an arrogant jerk Fallwell was to say it's God's planet, let him worry about it. Did he even READ the Bible? "I truly cannot imagine men with men, women with women, doing what they were not physically created to do, without abnormal stress and misbehavior." Oh, sure, I'll bet he imagined it a lot behind closed doors. Ok, yeah, that's mean, but still... "There's been a concerted effort to steal Christmas." "If he's going to be the counterfeit of Christ, [the Antichrist] has to be Jewish. The only thing we know is he must be male and Jewish." Um, what? Where is that coming from? Jesus was Jewish, so how does this make any logical sense? "You know when I see somebody burning the flag, I'm a Baptist preacher I'm not a Mennonite, I feel it's my obligation to whip him. In the name of the Lord, of course. I feel it's my obligation to whip him, and if I can't do it then I look up some of my athletes to help me. But, as long as at 72 I can handle most of the jobs I do it myself, and I don't think it's un-spiritual. When I, when I, when I hear somebody talking about our military and ridiculing and saying terrible things about our President, I'm thinking you know just a little bit of that and I believe the Lord would forgive me if I popped him." Yeah...sure he would... "The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etcetera." Yikes! That's a scary thought. Even having gone to a Christian school all my life, we had actuall science textbooks, history, and geography. If we only used the Bible, we sure would have a problem finding North America on the globe, huh? "God doesn't listen to Jews." LOL, oh, come on, where did this stuff come from?
Originally Posted By jonvn "The Bible specifically says that we are the stewards of the planet. God left us in charge of his creation and we are to take care of it." Pat Robertson last year actually broke down and said it was happening, and that we should do something about it...
