Originally Posted By danyoung >What's at heart, is that 1 for 1, 400 for 400, the wait is more.< We covered this somewhat in another thread, but I'll repeat in case anyone else hasn't dropped off into a dazed slumber. Yes, 400 people will wait longer in a FP standby line than they would have pre-FP. But it's not a fair comparison. 400 people today make up only 1/4 of the total number of people going through, while in the past if there were 400 people in line, that would be the total waiting to go. So of course they'd go through quicker in the past. It's like saying if a line is 1,600 people long, and another day it's 400 people long, you'll get in quicker waiting behind the 400 people. Of course. But that's not the issue. It's more about how long a STANDBY line is, and how long their wait is. My contention all along has been that FP hasn't made much of a difference in how long non-FP holders will wait. In past years there might have been a 60 minute wait with 1600 people in line. Today would be the same 60 minute wait, with 400 people in line. And I don't think people select whether to get in a line or not based on how many people are in front of them. They base it on how long the sign says they'll have to wait. >It's about how many more times is person A visiting Test Track on each trip down to Orlando. Test Track's ride count could maintain a constant level, it doesn't matter.< Then what do you care, if my frequency on Test Track makes me more familiar, and thus less enamoured of the ride? If the ride counts are constant, then what difference does it make, except on some esoteric level, that my familiarity with an attraction diminishes my need to see it? And by the way I'm not granting your premise, as I'm a Disney park geek, same as you. I enjoy Pirates just as much today as when I first rode it in the summer of '67. If I want to ride 5 times a day (which I don't usually), that's my choice, and I'll still want to ride it tomorrow. Weird, huh? As long as FP isn't upping the number of people riding on any given day, then any discussion of FP hurting the physical state of the attraction isn't valid. In my opinion, of course!
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>So what's your favorite character dinner?<< I hope that is sarcastic. You really wouldn't rather have the monthly top 10 thread???
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>But it's not a fair comparison. 400 people today make up only 1/4 of the total number of people going through, while in the past if there were 400 people in line, that would be the total waiting to go.<< But yours isn't either. Not everyone who grabs a FP would have been someone who would have been willing to wait and enter a 60 minute queue prior to FP. Your contention, as I am understanding it, is that: A= FP users B= Non FP queue members C= Old standby lines prior to FP A+B=C And that just is not what is occuring. You can't say it balances out because the FP users would have been in standby. No, a large portion of the FP users would be looking for something else to do with a more acceptable wait or they would try again when the lines would be less, or something else. It doesn't matter, not EVERY FP user would have been right there in the line with everyone else. >>Then what do you care, if my frequency on Test Track makes me more familiar, and thus less enamoured of the ride? If the ride counts are constant, then what difference does it make, except on some esoteric level, that my familiarity with an attraction diminishes my need to see it? And by the way I'm not granting your premise, as I'm a Disney park geek, same as you. I enjoy Pirates just as much today as when I first rode it in the summer of '67. If I want to ride 5 times a day (which I don't usually), that's my choice, and I'll still want to ride it tomorrow. Weird, huh? As long as FP isn't upping the number of people riding on any given day, then any discussion of FP hurting the physical state of the attraction isn't valid. In my opinion, of course! << And everything you said here makes perfect sense. Yes, plenty of people including myself will ride POTC again and again even without some South Park type ghost pirate with snakes on his face barking at us now. But, on the grand scheme of things, I do know that my theory is shared, I didn't create it out of thin air. Year by year, the attraction is going to have less and less people willing to wait 70 mins for it. For other people there will be less and less willing to wait 40 mins. for it. This effect is going to occur regardless. Everyone might love the attraction, but for the majority of the guests they are not going to come back or revisit as much based on that one attraction as they would have the trip prior, and the trip prior to that. That is why Disney has to add new things, that is why Disney keeps creating new celebrations. That is one of the reasons the ticket system died. It's going to happen on a macro level whether ir happens to me or you specifically. If it didn't Future World of '86 might still be there. With FP, and what Disney fears, is that it has increased this effect. The rides have become more accessible. When you charge $400 for something and lower the price to $200 it will be hard to get that $400 again. Same with peoples' time on vacation. VBDad is a perfect example. I'm sure when ToT premiered he was right there with me in the 90 minute lines. Would VBDad wait 90 mins. for ToT today? Would you? I'm not saying it's black & white. I'm not saying FP is the sole reason for this. But it does contribute. A lot. Again, why Disney feels it needs more thrill rides.
Originally Posted By ChiMike ^^ Or why new attractions have shorter ride times. FP is not the sole reason, but it contributes.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Someone doesn’t want to stand in lines for 90 minutes with kids in the summer? Well, then, don’t! Come some other time< spoken like someone without kids in school -- my oldest plays sports 10 months of the year in college - ony 2 months off -- so when do you suggest my vacation oh swamee ?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <But, I would hate to see someone believe that because FP works for them that it then makes it intrinsically fair for everyone< still waiting for the data that shows it is not fair -- keep getting the rhetoric but that's it....repeating it 500 times does not make it so.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>Some on this thread would argue that it's too bad for those people, that since those people could have choosen to arrive in Orlando or to WDW earlier, that the system is still fair.< This is absolutely no different than the average busy day that has Splash at a 2 hour wait towards the end of the day. FP has no effect on this. It was a 2 hour line before FP, and it'll be a 2 hour slower moving line with FP. < youmust ne mistaken Dan, I was told it was anywhere from 7 minutes to 30 minutes -- we must be at the wrong park buddy
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>spoken like someone without kids in school -- my oldest plays sports 10 months of the year in college - ony 2 months off -- so when do you suggest my vacation oh swamee ?<< How do you know that? Ever thought that others who face the same issue went during the summer and simply dealt with theme park lines because they were visiting a theme park. It's not a country club. I'm not saying don't visit. I'm saying expect consequences for situations. You say, "Don't blame me mr. standby because you wanted to sleep in" and I can simply say "Don't blame me mr. parent/caretaker because you have to follow school schedules" See? Just turning the tables. WDW shouldn't operate on yours, mine, or someone else's set of preferences. It should operate in a way that causes the most good for the largest amount of guests. Obviously those in charge think it is doing just that. I and others disagree.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>youmust ne mistaken Dan, I was told it was anywhere from 7 minutes to 30 minutes -- we must be at the wrong park buddy<< Again, if you think I wrote this then you aren't reading things correctly. I have been very clear and a dozen follow-up posts that I would never suggest no lines or short lines. So please stop trying to make a distinction when there is none to be made.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>still waiting for the data that shows it is not fair -- keep getting the rhetoric but that's it....repeating it 500 times does not make it so.<< Well, then you will continue waiting because it ain't coming. Still waiting for you to refute point A and B. When you do that I will get on Lexis and dig some nice stuff up for you. Deal?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <And that's fine. No one is trying to be Jimminy Cricket and tell people they are wrong for using FP. Just not use their personal advantage as justification why it must be the BEST way for Disney to deal with it's overall guest population and attraction queues< again no one has said it is the best way -- the topic was " is it fair " and the answer to that is still yes. Is the old system of everyone waits the same regardless also fair - that answer is also yes is EMH fair ( for those staying on the grounds yes ) for locals - no ! the question was fairness, let's not convalute the main discussion point -- drawing lots at the entry gate for what rides you can ride would also be a fair system, but I wouldn;t like that one either. Mike, you are constantly on about people using it to their advantage and that is what skews their opinion. Well look at your own opinionmy friend...it is based on the answer to me - to go at another time of the year other than summer - which I already explained why I cannot - as my oldest kid is tied to her sport 10 months a year in college -- so just because you can go when you want, you have a different view of FP than those of us who have to go in summer with the heavy crowds. If you can't see this is also swaying your opinion, then I don't know what to say. I want you to take one trip like I just did with my two kids and my two very young nieces in June or July and then tell me how 'unfair' the FP system is after that. I think your opinionmight change. Yeah when I get older and my kids are on their own, I'll give a rip about getting to make themost out of our trip...but that day ain't here yet for a lot of people....
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>> unbelievably smug response... << Not at all. It just drives me nuts when people trot out the "But what about the children" argument all the time. I meant what I said. And nothing personal. Just at least acknowledge the someone else's argument has SOME merit, instead of always telling them that they're wrong. There's something right in everyone's point of view, even if you don't agree with their conclusions.< sswed -- and I stick to my comment about the attitude-- this is not World events-- and to attack me because I used a REAL situation that involved my young nieces and then broad brush me as someone who uses the kids to get what I want is uncalled for. and I never said there was no merit to the discussion that FP should go away, my sole point of contention is on whether it's fair or not-- and there has still not been any analytical proof that it is UNFAIR.....if there has tell me....but their hasn't. there is an opinion that it is unfair - and an opinion that some do not like it... that doesn't make them any more right than me....was the old system of everyone waits fair also - I have already said it was fair in the strictest sense..just as FP is...first come - first served, whether it's to get in line or to get a FP ticket-- unfortunately the way you posted your response about not giving you the what about the kids stuff and all the diatribe about how all of our kids are spoiled...was personal and I do not feel I warranted that...if you still do, then that is your call..but am I going to let you know I don't appreciate it-- yes.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <What's worse than people missing the queue design is making 60 mins. worth of people stand still in the sun.< yet that is your proposal for everyone if FP is canned...I'm very confused then
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <And by the way I'm not granting your premise, as I'm a Disney park geek, same as you. I enjoy Pirates just as much today as when I first rode it in the summer of '67. If I want to ride 5 times a day (which I don't usually), that's my choice, and I'll still want to ride it tomorrow. Weird, huh? As long as FP isn't upping the number of people riding on any given day, then any discussion of FP hurting the physical state of the attraction isn't valid. In my opinion, of course! << you preach it Reverand Dan !
Originally Posted By vbdad55 < Everyone might love the attraction, but for the majority of the guests they are not going to come back or revisit as much based on that one attraction as they would have the trip prior, and the trip prior to that. < following this exact logic, then when everything goes back to 60 - 90 minutes in the summer, will people just stop coming to the park period ? If that answer is no, then that same answer also applies to your premise, as that is what you are proposing.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 < VBDad is a perfect example. I'm sure when ToT premiered he was right there with me in the 90 minute lines. Would VBDad wait 90 mins. for ToT today? Would you? < If I had to the answer is yes -- every time there - no. If I realy wanted to ride it yes, but this scenario lowers my satisfaction wiht the parks ( and that of people just like me- although that doesn't seem to matter in this discussion ) -I have already been there, done that in the late 80's and early 90's -- no thanks on going back to that. and as for me at premier -- it depends, when ToT premiered my youngest was very little so I made NO 90 minute waits...but why try and help those with little kids...I have already been told not to use the kids as a reason for anything, as if they don't matter in any equation... I think some have forgotten that kids are a part of the family unit that the parks were originally built for....but again, just my opinion. If not for kids I doubt I would use FP much at all.....( not that I am a heavy user now - just strategic ) -
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>again no one has said it is the best way -- the topic was " is it fair " and the answer to that is still yes. Is the old system of everyone waits the same regardless also fair - that answer is also yes is EMH fair ( for those staying on the grounds yes ) for locals - no ! the question was fairness, let's not convalute the main discussion point --<< The main topic is "Fast pass a thing of the past"
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>>still waiting for the data that shows it is not fair -- keep getting the rhetoric but that's it....repeating it 500 times does not make it so.<< Well, then you will continue waiting because it ain't coming. Still waiting for you to refute point A and B. When you do that I will get on Lexis and dig some nice stuff up for you. Deal? < it ain't coming because there is no way to prove it is unfair... as for point A and point B -- deal - give me the parameters again of this ( although it has nothing to do with Fair - it has to do with rider flow - agreed ? ) the fair portion ends at the ability to participate in the FP program when the gates open.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>drawing lots at the entry gate for what rides you can ride would also be a fair system, but I wouldn;t like that one either.<< It's not about what is fair and what isn't. It's about what is the best way to do things. The old way was the best way for operations. It was the best way for the financial analysts. It was the best way for Disney designers. It was the most fair way for the guest to get his place in line.
