Originally Posted By vbdad55 <The main topic is "Fast pass a thing of the past"< the argument put forward for at least 100 posts was that it should be a thing of the past because it was 'unfair' -- now if you are willing to admit it is perfectly fair and other reasons are why you are adamant it must go - then I am Ok with that -- because those are your opinions, just like I have mine and Dan has his etc....is there merit to all of those - sure..from a certain point of view on each...but let's bury this unfair thing...that is not a reason
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>>drawing lots at the entry gate for what rides you can ride would also be a fair system, but I wouldn;t like that one either.<< It's not about what is fair and what isn't. It's about what is the best way to do things. The old way was the best way for operations. It was the best way for the financial analysts. It was the best way for Disney designers. It was the most fair way for the guest to get his place in line.< then I guess I read the wrong first 100 posts or so that potayed the system as unfair....maybe my old age. and maybe I am not privy to 'inside' information, but all these groups you mention, they are all anti FP ? Where did those statements appear ? The FP system is long since paid for and depreciated, I am trying to understand what the Disney CPA's and financial analysts would be so concerned over
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Mike, you are constantly on about people using it to their advantage and that is what skews their opinion. Well look at your own opinionmy friend...it is based on the answer to me - to go at another time of the year other than summer - which I already explained why I cannot - as my oldest kid is tied to her sport 10 months a year in college -- so just because you can go when you want, you have a different view of FP than those of us who have to go in summer with the heavy crowds. If you can't see this is also swaying your opinion, then I don't know what to say.<< The problem is that you are making assumptions about me that are not true. Most of my life I visited Easter Week. Recently I have spent fourth of july weekend at WDW. I have spent miserable summers out in Anaheim. I'm not some guy with a narrow perspective. If you want to come in summer expect crowds. It's not Disney's problem if somebody has kids in school or not. I don't have TDLFAN's lifestyle so I can't visit Tokyo on a whim. It's all about making what meshes with one's lifestyle work. My bone of contention was the idea that FP must be fair because people who choose to raise kids can now visit and push their waittimes during a peak season on other rubes. I don't have a problem with people doing that. I do it. But I have a problem with that being a justification on why the system is good or is fair. So if I suggest that the old way is better for everyone, and I hear, "Well no, I have to deal with school schedules" My response would be that that is your individual problem as it might be my individual problem of Joe in Denver's individual problem. That is why DVC points cost more. DVC's system is fair. There is not a FP so one can use weekday points on weekends if the weekends aren't at full capacity.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I want you to take one trip like I just did with my two kids and my two very young nieces in June or July and then tell me how 'unfair' the FP system is after that. I think your opinionmight change.<< It won't because I've had to handle worse. And I used FP. But with my experience and with my perspective I would be intellectually dishonest if I said that the new way was a better system than the old.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <So what's your favorite character dinner? < anything I can eat while I wait to return for my FP -- hahahahaha !!!!
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>yet that is your proposal for everyone if FP is canned...I'm very confused then<< Well, I don't know how often or for how long you have visited Indy, but it's a very clear example. Before FP on most days the entire standby queue would be inside in air conditioning. With FP the entire standby queue was held outside in the sun and the old inside portion was empty except for people after the FP merge. So if the standby queue was 60 mins. 45 or 50 mins of it would be outside in the sun under FP. So that's not my proposal for everyone if FP is canned. This medium is not condusive to my discussion habits! VBDAD I'm going to have to visit Naperville with all of my charts, tables, and bins of disney related papers. j/k
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>following this exact logic, then when everything goes back to 60 - 90 minutes in the summer, will people just stop coming to the park period ? If that answer is no, then that same answer also applies to your premise, as that is what you are proposing.<< Sorry. Missed you completely on that.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <If you want to come in summer expect crowds. It's not Disney's problem if somebody has kids in school or not< shouldn't be their problem as it is their core audience isn't it ? Maybe that is why we got a system like FP to begin with or at least a factor in that. Do I expect crowds, you bet because unlike your directions to come another time when many like me cannot ( which I do view as a narrow perspective) - however we have no option. The option is to not go at all-- and I do not believe for a minute that is what Disney wants..do you ? So it's only Disney 's problem in that how do they try and make all customers happy -- and I view FP as an effort in that direction. And if Disney had the same attitude that having kids schedules to work around was only the parents 'problem' then they wouldn't have the base support they have today. They actually recognize it as an issue.. and try and adjust by lengthening hours when schools out crowds become larger andFP etc. By your logic Disney would view the kids issues as the guests problems and only stay open until 8 like the slow season, and tell us, hey come and get inline like everyone, it is fair.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <That is why DVC points cost more. DVC's system is fair. There is not a FP so one can use weekday points on weekends if the weekends aren't at full capacity.<' not even closeenough to be calledapples and oranges... so by this system of fair - what about when I use my $52/pt points to stay in the same facility as someone paying $98/pt for the same amount of points being used for the stay..... by buying in 12 years ago ( getting in line faster) - I do have an advantage-- so I guess DVC is also unfair.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>the argument put forward for at least 100 posts was that it should be a thing of the past because it was 'unfair'<< Sure, but I joined the discussion again to show Dan that FP wasn't only bad for high capacity attractions like HM or POTC. So it kind of just flowed from there. Again I will say that your criteria for FP being fair is irrelevant to me. So I can't really follow you down that vein. I simply could care less. My arguements towards FP do include guests having worse experiences in standby than they did prior to FP, so in that regard I believe it is bad show. I'm not innocent but I have tried to stay away from the whole "fair" thing since I rejoined the discussion. I think there are times when FP is not fair, so like I said I can't follow down that road of get to the parks early. >> -- now if you are willing to admit it is perfectly fair and other reasons are why you are adamant it must go - then I am Ok with that -- because those are your opinions, just like I have mine and Dan has his etc....is there merit to all of those - sure..from a certain point of view on each...but let's bury this unfair thing...that is not a reason<< I think I spoke to this above, but again, the system has it flaws, and maybe hypothetically or theoretically in your mind it is fair. But on the ground, in reality, there are many times when FP is not fairly operated. Yours and my buddy Dan already agreed to a number of them on another thread. So again, this whole thing is irrelevant to me. It's neither completely fair or completely unfair. Outside of that FP causes MANY problems for many different Disney stakeholders.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <This medium is not condusive to my discussion habits! VBDAD I'm going to have to visit Naperville with all of my charts, tables, and bins of disney related papers. j/k< c'mon out, and I'll bring my laptop and love of EXCEL spreadsheets and we'll have a beer at Jimmy's Grill on Washington Street...we'll hash this out..I am confident. and I bet we come to more middle ground than you would believe.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>and maybe I am not privy to 'inside' information, but all these groups you mention, they are all anti FP ? Where did those statements appear ? The FP system is long since paid for and depreciated, I am trying to understand what the Disney CPA's and financial analysts would be so concerned over << In a general sense FP is becoming harder and harder to justify financially. That is why there might be a push to expand it into vacation packages. Everything onstage is falling under FURTHER scrutiny in being justified in operating budgets. It no longer has anything to do with capital or depreciation.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Again I will say that your criteria for FP being fair is irrelevant to me. So I can't really follow you down that vein. I simply could care less. My arguements towards FP do include guests having worse experiences in standby than they did prior to FP, so in that regard I believe it is bad show. < okay, so let's drop the word 'fair' from the discussion and focus on the experience -- which is much more subjective. I can tell you my experience is enhanced ( as I believe many others are) because of FP. I do not want to return to 60 - 90 minute waits for everything. And yes I do believe the time of the year one attends, and if you have small children with you have a definite impact on whether FP works to increase your experience or not. Am I for limited use of FP - yes. Am I for getting rid of it altogether - no. Can it be turned off during periods of low crowds - sure, but with high crowds let's at least acknowledge that for a % of the guests ( and i'm not going to try and speculate on that % as it would change daily and by season) -FP enhances the experience. Can they limit it to one FP - per attraction - per day -- sure - no problem and I am sure the system can handle that. Do I want to see return times enforced - you bet.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>shouldn't be their problem as it is their core audience isn't it ? Maybe that is why we got a system like FP to begin with or at least a factor in that.<< No that would be incorrect. FP was created first for increased merchandise and concession sales. Second to market a way to avoid lines. It was setup under a strict set of parameters. Most of those parameteres have been violated.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Do I expect crowds, you bet because unlike your directions to come another time when many like me cannot ( which I do view as a narrow perspective) - however we have no option. The option is to not go at all-- and I do not believe for a minute that is what Disney wants..do you ?<< Well, you just answered it. "not come at all" That's an alternative. Seriously, regardless of DVC membership, this place isn't some country club. The old system worked better. If we ever return to it, which IS a possibility, and you still can only come in summer. Either come or don't come. It's all about priorities. As I said, a very politically conservative outlook, but one I would subscribe to. Going to Disney with the least inconvience is not a God given right. And you know that VBDad.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>So it's only Disney 's problem in that how do they try and make all customers happy -- and I view FP as an effort in that direction. And if Disney had the same attitude that having kids schedules to work around was only the parents 'problem' then they wouldn't have the base support they have today. They actually recognize it as an issue.. and try and adjust by lengthening hours when schools out crowds become larger andFP etc. By your logic Disney would view the kids issues as the guests problems and only stay open until 8 like the slow season, and tell us, hey come and get inline like everyone, it is fair.<< No this is a complete twisting of my position. Disney stays open longer because more people visit because of school, what have you. Of course I'm not saying that Disney doesn't deal with holiday times and schedules. Again, why DVC or WDTC have peak seasons. Well school schedules is the number one reason. You are twisting my meaning around to make me look out of touch when my real message is basically "get in line". You want to play, you pay. You want to come during summer, expect summer conditions. It was fine for 28 years. You are getting really personally involved with this while I'm arguing in abstracts. This is not an attack on your system, this whole discussion is about what is better for everyone, not VBDAD or CHIMIKE. Again, obviously management feels FP is in everyones best interest. I and others disagree.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>not even closeenough to be calledapples and oranges... so by this system of fair - what about when I use my $52/pt points to stay in the same facility as someone paying $98/pt for the same amount of points being used for the stay..... by buying in 12 years ago ( getting in line faster) - I do have an advantage-- so I guess DVC is also unfair.<< Again twisting. I've already said that as it is setup DVC is fair. The seasonal structure is extremely fair. Same for the weekend premium. It has nothing to do with you being first to buy DVC. Although I am sure your early bird perks were warranted and deserved. It has to do with the idea that, like crowds in the parks people have to GIVE UP more when visiting during peak times. Again, no one is attacking your use of FP, so I don't understand this need to operate in a black & white nature.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>and I bet we come to more middle ground than you would believe.<< I'm sure.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <No that would be incorrect. FP was created first for increased merchandise and concession sales< I agree there was plenty of talk about tha being the reason, yet for everyone here that would have had some insight, they never agreed to that, nor waas any mission statement ever published that I saw to confirm that...
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Well, you just answered it. "not come at all" That's an alternative. Seriously, regardless of DVC membership, this place isn't some country club. The old system worked better. If we ever return to it, which IS a possibility, and you still can only come in summer. Either come or don't come. It's all about priorities. As I said, a very politically conservative outlook, but one I would subscribe to. < not something as a stockholder I think is a very good solution - surely not one as a management team I would subscribe to.... <Going to Disney with the least inconvience is not a God given right. And you know that VBDad.< nobody ever said it was...just as being treated equally in this world is luck at best, not something that occurs often. And getting a system that allows some inconvenience to be avoided is not the apocalypse... as it seems FP is beign viewed.
