Originally Posted By vbdad55 <You are twisting my meaning around to make me look out of touch when my real message is basically "get in line". You want to play, you pay. You want to come during summer, expect summer conditions. It was fine for 28 years. < I twisted nothing which is why I posted your exact words and did not paraphrae -- you are the one that said it's the parent's problem, not Disneys, not me. Go back and read the post. as far as what worked for 28 years..time marches on and longevity does not equate to perfection. Leaded gas worked fine for 100 years, but then they took the lead out and the air is cleaner. ABCDE ticket books worked fine for 30+ years but then passports and now hoppers makeit easier to administer to the park media. The only one who takes longevity for 'better' is a union shop steward.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Again, no one is attacking your use of FP, so I don't understand this need to operate in a black & white nature.< because you are treating it like a black and white decision to get rid of, andit is far from that simple. If it was that simple it would alread havehappened.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 If it was cheaper to run without it, and all the masses of Disney employees hated it, and there would be no 'loss' to their customers ( real or perceived - doesn't matter) - and they felt it really didn't work, == even the most inept operations manager would have killed this already.
Originally Posted By danyoung My good friend vbdad, I'm so glad you have picked up the torch of this discussion in my absence. And my good friend ChiMike, I applaud you for your patience in your exposition, your excellent use of point/counterpoint throughout the day. This really has been a fun topic, at least for 3 of us (and I think for my very good friend Spirit, as well!). I have to comment on one thing, totally off topic. vbdad, you said earlier - >you preach it Reverand Dan !< This brings me back to my freshman (and only) year in college, when for whatever reason I was in an advanced philosophy class. There I was, with all these upper classmen, when the instructor presented a subject (can't remember now what it was) that was of interest to me. I listened to the discussion for a while, then hesitantly raised my hand to offer my opinion. As I made point after point, the instructor was nodding his head, encouraging me to continue, and I kept it building to whatever the main point was and the instructor slapped his leg and shouted "YES, you preach it, brother, and I'll turn the pages!" It was a high point of my short college career, & I've never forgotten it. Thanks for the trip down memory lane - let's talk more tomorrow, after the vodka has quit messing with me!!!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 cool rememberance....it's amazing the difference some teachers / professors can make....both positive and negative.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> is EMH fair ( for those staying on the grounds yes ) for locals - no ! << Well sure it is! There's no rule that says the local can't stay on property so that they can have access to EMH. We all have equal access to staying on property.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy Wow. Talking about FP with LP posters is like tossing gasoline on an open flame. Nobody's lukewarm on it either. Strong pro/con opinions on both sides. And yet I commend the posters. 266 posts so far and no ADMINS!
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy I've been through all the posts, and I don't think this has been answered yet. >> I'm interested to see if you'll at least acknowledge that one line is better than 2, regardless of what other variables would have to be dealt with. <<
Originally Posted By danyoung >And yet I commend the posters. 266 posts so far and no ADMINS!< That's cuz TDLFAN has been absent!
Originally Posted By CMM1 IMO, somebody in one of those last 100 posts made a very good observation: after now having FP around, most Disney park veterans are not willing to wait 90 minutes for any attraction - they will either forego it or simply do an FP when available. So FP has now created a certain expectation that might cause a negative reaction if FP were removed from the parks and "pre-FP" wait times for popular rides went back to 60-90 minutes during afternoons.
Originally Posted By kpwdwfan Safe to say that a line has been drawn in the sand so to speak and Disney park veteran's will not wait in long lines where FP is available. I'm sure everyone has different tolerances for wait times but I personally wouldn't waste 60 to 90 minutes in line when I get a FP. With FP my tolerance is about 30 to 45 minutes.
Originally Posted By danyoung >somebody in one of those last 100 posts made a very good observation: after now having FP around, most Disney park veterans are not willing to wait 90 minutes for any attraction - they will either forego it or simply do an FP when available.< That was me (humbly blushing. . .) >So FP has now created a certain expectation that might cause a negative reaction if FP were removed from the parks and "pre-FP" wait times for popular rides went back to 60-90 minutes during afternoons.< I think that's probably a valid statement. It wouldn't be the end of the world for me, but it would change how I tour the parks. In the olden days before FP, I would hit the mega-biggies right at park opening, criss-crossing the park and getting as many as I could, until the lines built up to that 60 to 90 minutes. Then I'd move on to the attractions with short or no waits like the Hall of Presidents or the Peoplemover. With FP I can intersperse those two categories whenever I want, and ride the mega-biggies throughout the day. It works very nicely for me.
Originally Posted By Socrates Any ambitious college students out there who would like to make this a thesis topic? Socrates "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<So FP has now created a certain expectation that might cause a negative reaction if FP were removed from the parks and "pre-FP" wait times for popular rides went back to 60-90 minutes during afternoons.>> Indeed, generation “now†is alive and well. I really don’t have the time to enter this marathon debate, but I do have the advantage of a unique perspective on FP having been a CM on a FP attraction (Auto). So, here are a couple of my thoughts if you don’t mind. It was rhetorically asked if CMs get hazard or hostile fire pay for dealing with the crap we do at merge…well, of course we don’t…but we should have. It could get really bad up there. Most CMs I knew (and that’s a lot) absolutely hated FP and absolutely hated working merge. CMs are often abused, berated, and sometimes even assaulted at the location by guests claiming that the CM’s being unfair or something of that ilk. It can get downright hostile. And that’s because guests see the CM like a traffic cop so-to-speak, arbitrarily allowing other guests to “cut†in front of them. Several times I’ve had to come to the defense of a smaller CMs to back some brutish moron off him/her. In fact, almost every case of a guest/CM altercation I could think of occurred at “merge.†Oh, and we heard some of the most wonderful compliments at merge, usually in the form of ********** or whatever vulgarity you can imagine. Great salty reality check for the kids! Now I’m not trying to say it was constantly out of control, but there always seemed to be a very tense, un-Disney aura at merge and there were exponentially more guest issues at merge than at any other location. And this is the opposite of what Disney is trying to achieve. I know why they offer FP—I’ve heard management spiel to us about it. I understand that its goal is to offer another perk to Disney park guests. But that isn’t how it is perceived by a very large portion of guests or guests in a moment. It was almost a given that once a week, someone would threaten to report me to City Hall for something like this. Of course, if they did Disney would not send the complaint through (or I never received an official complaint, at least). Anyway, I could rely endlessly the horrors of working merge. But really, considering the issues is caused for me and many, many other CMs, I wouldn’t mind one iota if Disney when back to a single line…first come, first serve method. Because, sometimes, even the appearance of evil should be avoided. I also see the FP issue a drain on park efficiency. It has been noted several times that FP effectively allows a guest to be in several places at once. Say, if I had a Splash FP and a Space FP, most people probably are using that time to ride other non-FP attractions, such as Pirates or Mansion. Essentially, the time I would have spent in line for Splash, is relplaced by and virtual line, while the real me is in line for Pirates or another, or several other attractions. Finally, with regard to Disney removing FP from DL, I would not blame them one bit. FP is not only expensive to maintain, it has become an Achilles Heel for the Casting Department. We all know how badly DL is hurting for CMs, yet, FP requires an additional 2 or 3 CMs per FP attraction. And because they are constantly short CMs to fill basic positions, they have spent A LOT on OT in the past year. So if DL is looking to scrap or downsize FP at its California Resort, I certainly understand why.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy Tiggertoo -- Thanks for your comments on FP from a CM perspective. Your points are well taken. I can only imagine having to deal with these kinds of guest frustrations daily. This just highlights that PERCEPTION is as important as FP reality.
Originally Posted By CMM1 Tig: Great post! On my last trip I saw just what you describe happening at the merge on Test Track (which is particularly bad since three lines converge there). But I will say that there was what appeared to be a Disney Customer Service person hanging around in the area - so at least it looks like management is aware there could be problems and is possibily watching out to make sure things don't get too out of hand. It seems like it all comes down to the impression of a perk that keeps FP around. But as stated elsewhere, now that the "genie is out of the bottle", many Disney fans might now find removal of FP to be a step backward and a return to wait times that might seem too long to them now that they are used to the occasional FP line with small wait times. Someone on another post mentioned how one might write a thesis or dissertation on something like FastPass and how such trivial research might be acceptable in today's universities. However, in this day and age of waiting at airports or on freeways where there are special or reserved lines for either "first class" customers or "prepaid toll users", discussions of the psychological impact of waiting by some when others seem to be getting preferred treatment or have pre-paid for special privileges may have a lot of relevance (note that there is currently a security business that is offering subscribers a means to "Fastpass" past "regular" airport security checkpoints). And, as Tiggertoo pointed out, the ramifications of waiting when others seem to be going ahead of someone may create certain "antisocial" tendencies - that too may well be an area of concern that has some relevance to the "real world" outside of theme parks.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy I don't think a detailed study and thesis on FP would be a trivial subject at all. >> the ramifications of waiting when others seem to be going ahead of someone may create certain "antisocial" tendencies << e.g. The person in the 10 items or less line with clearly more than 10 items. So in some sense FP might be viewed as one of Walt's dreams for Epcot, where new technologies are being tested for possible general use in today's society.
Originally Posted By macnas I'll be honest, I use FP constantly and have a bunch of them tacked up in my kitchen which I grab before any trip to the park. But I'm in the camp that says that overall, they're bad for the attractions, bad for the CMs. MK, my major point of reference, has been a nightmare this whole year and I'm sure some of it is the "virtual line" concept mentioned earlier, that people are in line for more than one attraction at once. And I feel awful everytime I walk past little kids at the merge. The funny thing is that it doesn't stop me from using them.. I just wish their parents would wise up and get them FPs of their own. I don't know if this was mentioned or not but at MK the FP machines are being turned over to the individual attractions for maintenance and repair, instead of being serviced by the Engineering department. It looks like a downsize of the Engineering dept but I thought it also looked like part of the FP phase-out.
