Originally Posted By danyoung >Or how about the fact that some people know via either economic or lifestyle means that Disney does not enforce the one-hour window? And others think their FP is worthless if not used within that hour. People like you and me gain because we exploit others’ lack of knowledge or in some cases lack of money.< How is this in any way a factor of money, lifestyle or economics? It's knowledge, pure and simple. A simple internet connection and a few well placed questions can give anyone all of the knowledge that we already have. As long as the FP system is available to all equally, then it's totally a fair system. When I was younger, I would visit DL all wrong. I'd get there on a Saturday at around 10 or 11am, and be ticked that there were huge crowds and long lines. When I got older I figgered it out - visit during the off season, visit during the week, get there at park opening to see and do the most. Should I abandon all of my knowledge because it's not fair to the first time visitor who gets in at 11am and curses the fact that Disney park lines are always huge? Not a chance. I'm proud of my knowledge, and proud of my ability to use the FP system well. And even though I wish Disney would restrict everyone to the 1 hour time window, I'm very happy to know that I have the freedom to use the pass outside of that window. And I'll be more than happy to share that knowledge with anyone else. Do I feel guilty going through a quickie line while others are standing in a long standby line? I do not, cuz they had the exact same chance to do it right as I did. After standing in a few long lines, I'd bet many many people figger it out, as it ain't rocket science.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost FP will live or die on it's own merit. If Disney thinks it is beneficial as a long range incentive, it will stay. If Disney thinks that the frustrated numbers standing in line longer will be a long range problem and public relations negative it will go. Personally I hope it goes but I do understand those that love it. In the words of Doris Day, I believe it was, "whatever will be, will be".
Originally Posted By vbdad55 "yet, regardless, still a caste-like system. Look at the DL AAA ultimate fastpasses." The fact that some pople can afford to attend Disney and others can't is a caste system, I do not see FP ( unlike Uni) adding to that.. "Or how about the fact that some people know via either economic or lifestyle means that Disney does not enforce the one-hour window? And others think their FP is worthless if not used within that hour." It may be cold, and yes it wouldbe nice if WdW really was a complete respite from the real world, but because I choose to read ahead, and comprehend...as opposed to some ( not all) who go through the motions..or take their kids there because they promised but they really don;t want ot be there ( overhear this often enough) - that no I do not feel the least bit guilty at all....it is an equal opportunity... "People like you and me gain because we exploit others’ lack of knowledge or in some cases lack of money. There is enough of that in the real world; do we really need it Disney parks so some adults don’t have to stand in a 20 minute line for an attraction they have experienced 30 times already? Come on…" Chi Mike-- way melodramatic compared to al your usual posts...mine time is just as important to me as anyone else's time is with them. I work 70 hours weeks 48 weeks a year - and many weekends...so I am supposed to not try and make the most of my time with my family. So if I can wait less in line and them sit down and have an extra Dole Whip with my kids...I will use the FP system....
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <<It goes both ways. Your way exploits others. I have yet to see in 7 years a solid defense to the contrary. My way keeps everybody equal. Not that I buy into Walt’s socialistic society, but when it come to waiting in line for a rolly-coaster, I’m all for Marx<< when they open that park in Moscow...this systemwill work well. Exploitation ? Again I am not sure of the reason for the high drama here. You somehow assume that those who do not plan ahead haven't been on the rides 500 times ( maybe locals) -- many more than me and my family -- there is the flaw in your argument. Not wanting to sound like W/E section - but lighten up -- am I also supposed to feel sorry for those who decide to sleep in when I get u at the crack of dawn because my kids want to see the rop edrop. Maybe I should then move to the side and wait a few hours before riding anything so that I don't exploit the fact that some people need more sleep than me ? This is like a nightmare on this topic-- I feel like I am arguing with Michael Moore ( am I ? --hmmmm) . Everyone has an equal opportunity to use the system....I gain nothing from any commodity, it is called intelligence and understanding. I am not donating a portion of my 401K to another person because they don't understand finance as well and invest the wrong way....I am not going to cross out my name of my diplomas and move them to someone else because they took the wrong classes / major -- this is about one thing and one thing only -- reading and understanding and if some people choose not to do that, or can't figure it out, I am not going to 'dumb down' that I do -- there is way too much of that going on in this country already...so I respectfully decline to acquiesce to your request..to steal a line.....
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>>If there must be an FP system, I wish it would at least be limited to some max number of usages to any single guest per day. Something like 2.<< I certainly agree with a limitation like that. I think the first thing they need to do is enforce the one-hour window. The system was put in place in 1999 with the one-hour window requirement at the heart of it's efficiency. Without that requirement the system loses any value it had to begin with, imo. < Now Mike, this statement I absolutly agree with..some limit of FP volumes and actual enforcement of the return window....the violation of the return window screws up the planning systme the FP is supposed to run to..
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>How is this in any way a factor of money, lifestyle or economics? It's knowledge, pure and simple. A simple internet connection and a few well placed questions can give anyone all of the knowledge that we already have.<< No, I stand by my statement. Either economics and/or lifestyle give some the ability to garner all of the tricks in visiting the parks nowadays. Its almost become a necessity to do your research because everyone is trying to out-maneuver each other. 20 years ago when information was more limited it was much easier to visit the parks without having to plan out something on the level of global thermal nuclear war. Back to my point, the people whose lifestyle, finances, or even employment allow them to spend amounts of time online getting all the tricks have an advantage over those that are working 60hrs a week and raising their kids to afford a once in the while random trip. They're not going to know (without an opportunity loss of spending their time on something else) what the exact time is to show up at Rose & Crown so you can boggart a waterfront view for Illuminations. IT IS in my mind an issue of resources. Disney should enforce the one-hour window or simply have the tickets say "come back after 2:35". Why after 4 or 5 years of no enforcement have they not changed the tickets? hmmm. I bet I know. >>As long as the FP system is available to all equally, then it's totally a fair system.<< I'm sorry, in practice, in reality, I don't believe that to be the resulting outcome.
Originally Posted By danyoung >...the people whose lifestyle, finances, or even employment allow them to spend amounts of time online getting all the tricks have an advantage over those that are working 60hrs a week and raising their kids to afford a once in the while random trip.< Well, yeah, I have more free time than others might. So what? Did I choose to raise 6 kids with a low paying job? I started out dirt poor, and took advantage of the same opportunities that have been available to all. I ain't rich by any means, but I'm not going to apologise for what I do have, and the small luxuries my situation have given me. And I'm sure not going to buy that the parent in your example who works the 60 hour weeks and digs and scrapes to take a trip with his family is in any way threatened by the FastPass system, or its incredibly simple rules. We mostly agree here that Disney needs to enforce the 1 hour time window, but other than that, the info that I have is the same exact info that anyone else can learn, either through an online search or through a book or through actual on-site experience. I've got more experience than others in the Disney arena, and I'm just not gonna feel sorry about that.
Originally Posted By ChiMike I don't want you or vbdad to feel sorry for anything. And that parent isn't threatened by the FP system BUT THEY ARE penalized because they follow the rules Disney publically dictates that others know are unenforced. Between that and the fact that nobody has called into question my point that when you get down to it someone benefiting off of fastpass negatively effects someone else, I don't think there is much more to debate. I never ever bring this up and go out of my way to avoid the World Events forum, but I normally don't adopt liberal or socialistic views. I believe I am not doing so here either. I was brought up and lived a life with a strong sense of what is fair. I think as it is run today, in reality, the Disney FP system is not fair for all. I think it's a personal decision for each person on how they justify the advantage, but there really is no debate that someone somewhere is offseting that advanatge by being disadvantaged. That really is the 8th or 9th point on my list on why FP is bad though, so I won't dwell on it any longer. Lastly, I just wonder how many of us felt we had it so bad, how much of our well-deserved vacation time was put in jepordy before 1999. I think the folks at Disneyland have successfully proved and will prove with Indy's removal that it is better for the parks all-around, and thus better for the guest population, to remove FP and get a lower standby wait.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Lastly, I just wonder how many of us felt we had it so bad, how much of our well-deserved vacation time was put in jepordy before 1999. < But time marches on...life used to be simpler. My life was much quieter before text messages, pages, the internet and a lot of other things, but some of those things are improvements and bring some benefits along with the down side. My cellphone allows me to keep in touch with those I want to more today than 1980 -- but it works the other way also. FP is what it is...and as for that invonvenienced 60 hour a week person..no sympathy from me, 60 hours would be a nice week... And Mike I always respect your views as they are well thought out...but we are going to disagree on this one no matter what. yes there are people who have advantages over others in this world in many things...however the 'disadvantaged' you are seeking to protect likely are not at WDW anyway. With the economy today, more and more people are not going to be able to afford going to WDW....and with corporations off shoring every white collar job they can think of...many oof us may also be cutting off those trips...or at the very least making them more infrequently. So if I can apply a little knowledge ( available to all) to make my trips more rewarding now..I am surely going to do that.. But again, once there, using FP is not brain surgery..it's an easy system. My Mom is in her 70's and she gets it...( and likes it ) - and my 12 year old does just fine with it also and has since it came out.
Originally Posted By danyoung >I think it's a personal decision for each person on how they justify the advantage, but there really is no debate that someone somewhere is offseting that advanatge by being disadvantaged.< Believe it or not, I agree with you, Mike. And that was my first thought way back when FP first came on the scene - them regular lines are really gonna slow down. My justification comes from the fact that the knowledge that I use to make the FP system work is freely available to all. I don't even go the final distance and use the Darkbeer list to get multiple FP's at the same time - one at a time is enough for me. >That really is the 8th or 9th point on my list on why FP is bad though, so I won't dwell on it any longer.< Hey, as long as discussion is happening without name calling, dwell away, my friend!
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>I seem to remember reading on one of these posts that someone in the Disney upper echelon does not like the Fast Pass system and that there is a plan to get rid of Fast Passes some time in the not so distant future? Did I read right?!<< IF the current management at Disney got it right for once... we would be lucky to see Fastpass eradicated for once and for all. It's just a bad idea that places the guests into a class system, and those of you they concider puke will be waiting in the stand by line forever. I say DOWN WITH FP forever! Return the "magic" to the queues.
Originally Posted By TexasTeaIII Anyone who can book a flight, operate a car, make reservations for dinner, raise children and help them with homework, use an ATM machine surely can figure out how to use the FP system. My god it is so basic--- so where is this elitism people are talking about? All visitors have the intelect and basic tool kit of common knoweledge to use FP. People from deep in the Rio Amazones of Brazil who have not harnessed fire yet are not the ones frequenting Disney parks right?
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> so where is this elitism people are talking about? << >> My god it is so basic << --------------------- Ok, I'll say this real slow for you... --------------------- YES, FastPass can be advantageous. NO, it's not that hard to use. IF FastPasses are available on any given day when I walk up, Hooray! We all win! FP is truly doing what it is supposed to. I seriously agree. I do! BUT, FP's AUTOMATICALLY do make regular standby lines longer, because they are consuming part of the limited standby resource. And once the FP's are gone for a given day, I'm stuck. I'm in that longer line. That's the unfair part. And don't tell me "I should have gotten up earlier and gone immediately to a FP station to get a FP." I would respond with "If it's such a wonderful and simple reservation system, then let FastPass book me RIGHT NOW for a time TOMORROW, or even the NEXT DAY" Why limit it to today? And/or -- if an attraction is very popular and is typically running out of FP's on any given day, then at least limit the number of FP's given out on that attraction to any given individual to ONE AND ONLY ONE. Now THAT's the reservation system that is more like we all use in restaurants and airlines, and "My God, is so simple." ------------------------- An example -- Suppose airlines limited their bookings to just one day. Just today. "We're sorry, our bookings for today are full. That's it." "If you still want to fly today, come down to the airport and wait in line." "Maybe you'll get on if someone else doesn't show up." "Maybe you should have gotten up earlier today to book your flight." A stupid example? Yes. But it's the way FP works now. ------------------------- I would predict that if an FP system were booking capacity MANY DAYS AHEAD OF TIME (on a very popular attraction), then it's possible even YOU won't be able to get a FP for the day when you happen to be in the park and want to ride, even if you did get up early on that day. Then we can listen to YOU complain about how FP is unfair. -------------------------- BOTTOM LINE -- A simple FP system that gives equal access to all is good and right. I like FP! -------------------------- IF an attraction is NOT running out of FP's early on any given day, then LEAVE THE CURRENT FP SYSTEM ALONE. The current FP system is just fine. I like FP! -------------------------- BUT, if a popular attraction is running out of FP's early in the day, then the current system favors early risers and people who are willing to run, to the disadvantage of others. And THAT's the part of FP that's WRONG. ---------------------------
Originally Posted By danyoung >And don't tell me "I should have gotten up earlier and gone immediately to a FP station to get a FP."< Umm, you should have gotten up earlier and gone immediately to a FP station to get a FP. Seriously, there's nothing unfair with a system that has a limited inventory and runs out on a busy day. It's no different from the old days where you had to ride Splash first thing in the morning or face a 60-90 minute wait. And it's rare that an attraction will run out of FP inventory before noon. You can no more plan your day by showing up mid-afternoon and getting all the benefits of an early riser than you could pre-FP.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I would respond with "If it's such a wonderful and simple reservation system, then let FastPass book me RIGHT NOW for a time TOMORROW, or even the NEXT DAY" Why limit it to today? < because there'd be even more whining and crying like there is about the dinign reservation system that let's you book out in advance - that's why
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <BUT, if a popular attraction is running out of FP's early in the day, then the current system favors early risers and people who are willing to run, to the disadvantage of others. < the world is full of choices.. those who do not save the money , or make bu ku bucks cannot even go to WDW_ that's a disadvantage to others also.... I just don't get all the complaining -- when I am there - the days I get there early I use the FP to a limited extenet and it is great...on the days I want to sleep in, I may not -- it's my choice and if i choose to hop to a second park later and the FP are gone ( also not gone anywhere near as much as portrayed here - except for Test Track and Soarin' )- then I may not be able to partake cest la vie. It was my choice
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>And don't tell me "I should have gotten up earlier and gone immediately to a FP station to get a FP." I would respond with "If it's such a wonderful and simple reservation system, then let FastPass book me RIGHT NOW for a time TOMORROW, or even the NEXT DAY" Why limit it to today? << SSWedguy, that is an awesome point that I haven't seen brought up on this thread yet! While I wouldn't want people to be able to book it farther out than they can today, it is a good way to explain why FP isn't so similiar to a reservation.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I would predict that if an FP system were booking capacity MANY DAYS AHEAD OF TIME (on a very popular attraction), then it's possible even YOU won't be able to get a FP for the day when you happen to be in the park and want to ride, even if you did get up early on that day. Then we can listen to YOU complain about how FP is unfair.<< Beat me to it! Again, AWESOME point
