Originally Posted By vbdad55 < It's easy for many people to sit back and lecture the rest of us on how fair it is when you benefit from it.< show me one objective statitisical/ hard fact - not emotion type analysis that shows where it is unfair...I am still waiting for anyone. <But just wait until IT IS offered in a more advantageous perk for those in an all inclusive WDTC package. Then you will hear screams of bloody murder from the DVC crowd. As they demand they get some sort of Member benefit equal to what WDTC offers< but again this Chicken Little approach doesn;t sit well with me as it's been over 3 years and the sky hasn;t fallen yet, in fact FP has been scaled back on some attractions where it wasn't deemed necessary any longer -- how do we get doom and gloom from that ? < As I said I have no problem going back to the old way. The thing though is that most guests have been conditioned in thinking a day at Disney with FP is the norm. I don't know how many people would be willing to go back to standing in 35 min. lines for BTMR< My family goes in June because I have kids in school - let's not romanticize about 25 miniute lines for me-- thoseline were 90 mins for themajor rides so no why would I want to go back past something that works ? But no, I do not EXPECT any special treatment for being a DVC member..andything we get I view as a perk, not an entitlement. <You can fling out phrases like quantitative methods of analysis but to this day you have never refuted my often repeated point that someone, somewhere is waiting longer each time you breeze onto an attraction. It's a zero-sum system. Someone's gain is someone else’s loss. < and there is no way you can prove this to be true -- who says peole aren't actually going to eat if the line is too ling, or shop or go on something else..I have NEVER seen a line longer today than it was in the late 80's or 90's - so this arguement holds no water for me as it is purely speculative...the only argument against FP is " I don;t like it...." I don't want to get up early, people are riding one ride too many times ...none of those make it unfair inany way--even the darn ACLU would find this fair IMHO ! < I can't believe that anyone who is intellectually honest would believe this to be a great system for Disney and it's guests. < well then call me an idiot...but there isn;t one aspect of this that woouldn;t stand up in QM graduate class. < You can't take someone who has ridden Space Mountain for 15 years on 5-7 min waits and now tell them to ride (they have already experienced for 15 years) with a 40 min wait for it. < and who the heck is this ?? IT WAS NEVER ME.... so using your logic don't tell someone who waited 90 + minutes for all the major rides EVERY TIME in summer they have to go back to doing that because you want to sleep in -- doesn't work either does it ? <VBDad, I’m sure you disagree with me as much as I do you on this one issue. I just wanted to toss in that I think on mostly every other single issue you are pretty much spot on.< I appreciate that and respect your right to have the opinion you do....but I am telling you my 50 visit + experience tells me that the system works...and fairly . However if do I recognize that the system needs tweaks and enforcements occasionally - sure. Return times need to be enforced or it becomes less fair.....rides continually need to be analyzied- either to add FP or remove it. Some rides work better without it -- i.e. Haunted mansion -- some rides much better with it. But if someone tells me I could ride SM in 15 minutes w/o FP when I always waited 90 mins + -- then I have a hard time with that argument. Want to shut it off a day in mid January when the crowds are light - be my guest...it would made logical sense if all line waits are short-- June thru August -- and visiting there with the kids -- sorry, it is a valuable entity
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>nor do I but I figured it would placate the anti fastpass sentiment...I havenever gotten a FP for the same ride in the same day<< That's my point. It isn't that you subscribe to the points motivating such a suggestion of one per day. A policy that I too feel would be inconsequential, but that since it still doesn't effect how you might currently visit the park it's "no biggie". I think the only thing that would cause the FP system to become unfavorable to the majority of guests is when it actually affects them. When it affects THEIR Disney experience in a negative way. I am quickly being reminded that "the greater good" is not often an espoused principle by most Disney guests.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> Now if we can get those return times enforced. << Bingo. And to eliminate CM confrontations you could potentially use the same FP machines that are used for issuing FP's for returning guests. Put your card back in the slot. If you're here for your properly registered return time, you'll get in. If you're outside your return time, it won't let you in. This would eliminate giving my ticket to someone else, too. (good and bad, I know) The printed FP ticket would just be a paper reminder. The actual park pass would be your FP gate back into the attraction.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>From what I have heard in my area in discussion with management and imagineering, by this time next year... NO more fast pass.<< Ghosthost that would be great. I know there is STRONG anti-FP sentiment outside of Mendenhall's group so a guy can hope. My only fear is that instead of it's decline it ends up continuing on by a new justification filled by WDTC.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Is it just me or am I just imagining remebering 90 min + lines ( with early entry perks - and much later hours) - in the late 80's and early 90's ? Everyone acts like FP created these lines....there were horrid lines before FP also...let's not pretend this is only a FP issue here okay ?<< Sorry, you are wrong. That's simply not the case. When the lines were longer pre-FP it was because there were more bodies making up that line. The same queue time of 90 mins. nowadays has MANY less people making it up in relation to a 90 min. line in 1982.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Maybe they want to take tha return to be a slightly bigger window ( not much) but then enforce it. If someone returns at 6 Pm with a Noon FP - the answer is no.<< But again, That violates the original principles of the system. The system was calibrated to make sure those riders entered the line in that specific hour. Disney through enabling guests to feel "special" and stop registering complaints at City Hall, which thus ruined Cyn-Cyn's glamorous guest satisfaction metrics, stopped enforcing the return time end-time. Yet they never recalibrated the distribution of the FPs. Even a two hour window throws everything off. Why after a parade or late at night rides would get a spike in FP returns with a portion of them not belonging there. But like in the Seas thread, the CMs don't want to put themselves out there for what amounts to a no-win situation.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy You know -- this whole FP argument -- going both ways both for it and agin' it -- has interesting parallels with the metered freeway on-ramps (stay with me on this!) at nearly ALL the in-city Interstate ramps in Mpls/St. Paul in years past. HUGE arguments from people and learned engineers with PHD's who could prove beyond a doubt that metered ramps (during rush hours) worked better than non-metered ramps. HUGE arguments from people and learned engineers with PHD's who could prove beyond a doubt that the backups at the ramps themselves were interminable, compared to the overall value gained. END RESULT -- Most of the metered ramps were finally turned off, with great thrashing and gnashing of teeth, for a multi-month trial period. Many people predicted doom, and the end of western civilization as we know it. RESULT -- Most of the meters were never turned back on again. The system works, pretty much better than it did before. Yes, the highway is glutted at times during rush hour causing backups. However, the people are less frustrated because they're not being inhibited by what was seen as an artificial barrier, rather than at least a "real" one. What does all this have to do with FP? Danged if I know. But I think it's interesting. ----------------- I'll be going to get my meds now.... 83-83-83.... -----------------
Originally Posted By danyoung >It's not that simplistic...My larger problem with FP is that it is bad for Disney...< The discussion about whether FP is fair and whether it is bad for Disney are 2 different discussions. I can't see any valid argument currently that says that FP is in any way unfair. >The same queue time of 90 mins. nowadays has MANY less people making it up in relation to a 90 min. line in 1982.< Yes, that's very true. And in a sense it's a bad thing, as it's much harder to stand in a slow moving line. But some people are saying that Space Mountain used to have a 7 minute line in the middle of the summer, and that just ain't true.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>show me one objective statitisical/ hard fact - not emotion type analysis that shows where it is unfair...I am still waiting for anyone.<< I don't need to. Because no one has ever refuted these two points. Two points held by Disney executives who have operational experience of 20+ years. A) Someone's FP gain, is someone else's standby loss. If Splash can only offer rides to 38% of the park's daily attendance, every person in that 38% who uses FP makes someone else in that 38% wait longer. B) FP makes queue length take longer to cycle out. Queue length of 100 people take longer to load with FP than Queue length of 100 people pre-FP. When you can somehow dispute either point, I will gladly take a crack at what every number mumbo-jumbo game you would like to play.
Originally Posted By danyoung Mike, I don't disagree with either of your points. In fact, back when FP first came online, that was my one major question about it - whether the slow moving standby lines were going to be a problem. They aren't for me, as I never get in them unless they're short. But as I've said before, I rarely have ever climbed into a 90-120 minute queue anyway. I only did it when a new attraction like Indy or Rocket Rods opened up and waiting in the long line was the only way to see the attraction. Now I have the option of getting a ticket, coming back in a few hours, and not standing in a 90 minute line. And every single person standing in that 90 minute line has the same option as I have. I just don't see it as any big evil thing.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> A) Someone's FP gain, is someone else's standby loss. << And that very simple fact alone is what is basically "unfair" to the person's who get stuck with the loss. But some people just refuse to agree with this observation. So the argument is done, and they're just not going to listen. Until (I agree with you on this) it finally affects them.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>but again this Chicken Little approach doesn;t sit well with me as it's been over 3 years and the sky hasn;t fallen yet, in fact FP has been scaled back on some attractions where it wasn't deemed necessary any longer -- how do we get doom and gloom from that ?<< First, that doesn't address my contention that there will be much whining coming from the halls of the villas. Second, it's not chicken little. It's called Destination Disney. It's been an idea publically thrown around for years. While the original Destination Disney has (gladly) seen many roadblocks it's almost ostrich like to think that the FP component is dead. Not when Disney is trying to find more and more ways to financially justify every operation that is on-stage. >>and there is no way you can prove this to be true -- who says peole aren't actually going to eat if the line is too ling, or shop or go on something else..<< I could tell you but then I would have to kill you. no. Seriously, it is pretty much agreed around all of the opposing factions in and out of the company that FP never brought increased food & merchandise sales. I think there was a speech somewhere to where one of Paul's underlings said that FP has now become more of a marketing component because Diseny realized that people were visiting more attractions instead of shopping. Not what was intended. A number of justifications were even given to why attractions like CoP or Tiki had seen an upswing in counts because people were waiting for their FP. I don't think I'm creating fiction here. >>I have NEVER seen a line longer today than it was in the late 80's or 90's - so this arguement holds no water for me as it is purely speculative...the only argument against FP is " I don;t like it...." I don't want to get up early, people are riding one ride too many times ...none of those make it unfair inany way--even the darn ACLU would find this fair IMHO !<< That has not been my argument. I think it does my point a disservice if that's how it would be summed up. The closest I have come is that FP has changed the way one can visit the park without planning. I, at least, never complained directly about having to be there at open.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>and who the heck is this ?? IT WAS NEVER ME.... so using your logic don't tell someone who waited 90 + minutes for all the major rides EVERY TIME in summer they have to go back to doing that because you want to sleep in -- doesn't work either does it ?<< You're trying to personalize this. I'm not talking about one specific person. My statement accurately reflects the common wisdom that Disney does not want to put most people who have become accustomed to using FP over the last 7 years back into long lines. They are in a corner and are trying to figure out what the future should be. This nonsense about me making you stand in long lines because I want to sleep in really phases me VBDAD. First I have never said that is why I dislike FP, and I don't sleep in. The fact is you choose to visit in the summer. For whatever reason. Well, then deal with the lines. Just as I have to deal with planning trips that I never had to plan earlier. I would say that you obviously had no problem visiting in the summer before FP, so what's with the big horror of returning to that? I don't think anybody needs to be penalized for my own preferences but I will say that the parks operated very well for 44 years without FP. Didn't seem that the long lines scared anyone away from returning to the parks year after year. Especially when more and more things were built to spread out the crowds. I get to the park when it opens all the time so I don't know where you get this idea. I will say though that I would have no problem with you dealing with summer crowds because you choose to visit in the summer. What's wrong with that?
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I appreciate that and respect your right to have the opinion you do....but I am telling you my 50 visit + experience tells me that the system works...and fairly .<< Unfortunately, as a visitor who benefits from a poorly calibrated system that statement doesn't really persuade me. From, in the very least, an equal experience visiting as a guest as well as being around here and there I can tell you that easy arguments can be made and are made against FP without even speaking towards any sort of guest experience. Throw in the uneven, inconsistent guest experience, even CMM's recent Test Track example which is certainly not breaking news, and for those who look at things outside their own prism and summer vacation plans, it often can be a easy clear-cut pov to have.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>But if someone tells me I could ride SM in 15 minutes w/o FP when I always waited 90 mins + -- then I have a hard time with that argument.<< No one is saying it is that extreme. Again for like the 9th time I will say: [Queue length of 100 people] Queue time pre FP < [Queue length of 100 people] Queue time post FP. The only reason the lines for Space Mountain were so long in 1981 was because the ride was only 6 years old and was the biggest E-Ticket in the entire state of Florida. However, that same QUEUE LENGTH from 1981 would take longer to cycle out with the FP system in place. Am I finnally explaining myself clearer? I know I'm not the best writer.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>>Is it just me or am I just imagining remebering 90 min + lines ( with early entry perks - and much later hours) - in the late 80's and early 90's ? Everyone acts like FP created these lines....there were horrid lines before FP also...let's not pretend this is only a FP issue here okay ?<< Sorry, you are wrong. That's simply not the case. < and you are comparing summer to summer ? Then I will say you are wrong -- 60-90 minutes waits for Splash / Space / Thunder/ Peter Pan / Indy were all day long and that's when parks were open to 1 AM this as not m imagination. As to how many people in line - first off how do you get facts for that ? - secondly 90 minutes is 90 minutes
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I can see both sides of the arguement here. I do have to say though, I miss the spontanious nature park going used to have, where other than the hotel and flight, the only thing you had to book in advance were your dining reservations....the morning of your trip. On the flip side, with travelling a great distance to get to the resorts, I like the way I can guarentee my restaurant sitings, and also prioritise my experiences. When in posession of Fast Passes, they are wonderful - and with small kids, I don't feel as guilty riding some of the whiteknuckles. 20 mins for them to wait, have an ice cream, or play in a playground is fine. I would skip the attractions if they were at 90 mins. And given how things often seem to change for the worst in the parks, I don't want to miss these opportunities. Therefore, FP is great. On the flip side, it used to be wonderful to walk past an attraction and judge whether it was worth hoping in line. This is not as easy anylonger. FP or no FP, I will use different tactics for enjoying my experience, but I do think they are here to stay.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I also miss those long hours that you didn't have to pay extra for. Do you think FP also has led to their demise? After all, if you are not in a queue physically for 90 mins, why do we need longer opening hours. I can't believe how much a rip off the Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party is compared to DL and DLP offering these treats and hours for free.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>RESULT -- Most of the meters were never turned back on again. The system works, pretty much better than it did before. Yes, the highway is glutted at times during rush hour causing backups. However, the people are less frustrated because they're not being inhibited by what was seen as an artificial barrier, rather than at least a "real" one.<< ssWEDguy a very interesting and accurate parallel!!! Those meters on the ramp were artificial barriers that were useless outside of comforting those who are uncomfortable or incapabale of properly merging into traffic. A debate that I shouldn't start on here! Thanks for a great post
