Fast Pass a Thing of the Past?

Originally Posted By ChiMike

>>Yes, that's very true. And in a sense it's a bad thing, as it's much harder to stand in a slow moving line. But some people are saying that Space Mountain used to have a 7 minute line in the middle of the summer, and that just ain't true.<<

I agree. It's far from the truth. However in the summer of 1998 before FP, Space's queue was VERY manageable. As more and more things became available at WDW, Space's ride counts became much more inline with other offerings. With the exception of early 2002, FP DID increase Space's standby in relation to where it was in 97 and 98.

And a very good point about slow moving standby lines. Another FP effect. Lines not only take longer for the same amount of people but in most cases less queue is used than in the past and there is much more standing rather than a slow gradual shuffling.

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55

<>>show me one objective statitisical/ hard fact - not emotion type analysis that shows where it is unfair...I am still waiting for anyone.<<

I don't need to. Because no one has ever refuted these two points. Two points held by Disney executives who have operational experience of 20+ years.

A) Someone's FP gain, is someone else's standby loss. If Splash can only offer rides to 38% of the park's daily attendance, every person in that 38% who uses FP makes someone else in that 38% wait longer.

B) FP makes queue length take longer to cycle out. Queue length of 100 people take longer to load with FP than Queue length of 100 people pre-FP.

When you can somehow dispute either point, I will gladly take a crack at what every number mumbo-jumbo game you would like to play.<

this is not MUMBO JUmBO -- the question is whether ti is fair - I can do the math as to how many riders per hour can ride a ride -- that DOES NOT make the system of getting a FP UNFAIR -- regardless

 

Originally Posted By ChiMike

>>Mike, I don't disagree with either of your points. In fact, back when FP first came online, that was my one major question about it - whether the slow moving standby lines were going to be a problem. They aren't for me, as I never get in them unless they're short. But as I've said before, I rarely have ever climbed into a 90-120 minute queue anyway. I only did it when a new attraction like Indy or Rocket Rods opened up and waiting in the long line was the only way to see the attraction.
Now I have the option of getting a ticket, coming back in a few hours, and not standing in a 90 minute line. And every single person standing in that 90 minute line has the same option as I have. I just don't see it as any big evil thing.<<

Dan, it is almost the same exact circumstance for me too. With FP there I will not wait 120 mins for Splash at DL. I don't think it's evil either.

But I can't ignore that "greatest good" thing I mentioned earlier. There is a lot of upset guests in those queues. Those guests weren't upset like that before FP. It really slants many Disney decision makers pro/con list for the system. The greatest good when it comes to their guests does factor in. Sometimes one (especially the fronline CMs) has to think if if it is worth it. How many upset newbie guest complaints does it take to overcome the benefit to Disney's repeat visitors? A real question that has been posed. So far, obviously, not enough to warrant a change.

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55

<>> A) Someone's FP gain, is someone else's standby loss. <<

And that very simple fact alone is what is basically "unfair" to the person's who get stuck with the loss.

But some people just refuse to agree with this observation. So the argument is done, and they're just not going to listen.

Until (I agree with you on this) it finally affects them.
<

BUT YOU HABE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET A FP THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE __ HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN THIS BE ?


I am listening just fine, but you only view your opinionof it because it affcts you -- ANY ticket system is unfair -- the first people in the park get to ride Dumbo with Mickey - UNFAIR !!! again to those who do not want to be there at rope drop -- I want to sit in the front for the parade- but I was eating and didn;t get their -- UNFAIR ! I wanted a turkey leg but is 10 pm and they are gone UNFAIR ! ditto for anything else you can think of-- the FACT of the matter is the ability to participate in FP is an equal opportunity chance , no difference than anything else-- that is the topic -- not do you like it or not--if anyone is rfusing to listen it is the anti FP people. The question is not do you like it, it is is the system fair.

 

Originally Posted By ChiMike

>>and you are comparing summer to summer ?

Then I will say you are wrong -- 60-90 minutes waits for Splash / Space / Thunder/ Peter Pan / Indy were all day long and that's when parks were open to 1 AM this as not m imagination.

As to how many people in line - first off how do you get facts for that ? - secondly 90 minutes is 90 minutes<<

VBDad, I think if you look at my better worded posts you will see what I am trying to say. If you still disagree with them, I would be glad to hear about it because I really don't see a problem with my point B contention. That FP has made standby wait times to increase for the same line length.

 

Originally Posted By danyoung

I was about to post, but vbdad beat me to it. There's a difference between someone getting an advantage because they arrived early or had more knowledge or whatever, and something being unfair. The bold part of vbdad's post bears repeating - BUT YOU HABE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET A FP THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE. As long as this is the case, then it's a totally fair system. But of course someone waiting in the slow moving standby line is gonna be grumbly, and I don't blame them.

>But I can't ignore that "greatest good" thing I mentioned earlier.<

And this is an important question. Is my benefitting from knowing how to use FP worth all the extra waiting for the masses in the standby line? I don't really think it is, but I'm gonna stick my head in the sand and cover my ears and sing "la la La La LAAAAA", cuz I know how to work the system and get the benefit, and I'm willing to pass my knowledge along to anyone who is willing to learn.

 

Originally Posted By ChiMike

>>I also miss those long hours that you didn't have to pay extra for. Do you think FP also has led to their demise? <<

Actually, no. If anything FP reduces their value.

The hard-ticket events of the past and present are simple money-grabs to help offset the operational expenses of staying open. It's genius really!

I mean, come on, pay another $12 or $50 so you can visit the park for 5 more hours when 15 years ago it was free. Pure financial genius. If people are paying, whose to blame Disney?!

 

Originally Posted By davewasbaloo

I'm in your boat too Dan, totally. Do I think FP benefits the masses - no.

Does everyone have the same opportunity - yes, as long as they do their homework.

Would I miss Fp - for a while

Do I use it - yes, why cut your nose to spite your face?

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55

<This nonsense about me making you stand in long lines because I want to sleep in really phases me VBDAD. First I have never said that is why I dislike FP, and I don't sleep in.
<

it was my way of depersonalizing that --as the sleep in argument has been used by others here...

what is miffing me is that all kinds of other facts outside the start here are personalizing this...the fact is that the FP system is fair inthat it allows everyone the same opportunity -- to go beyond that is personalizing it with an opinion.

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55

<>>But if someone tells me I could ride SM in 15 minutes w/o FP when I always waited 90 mins + -- then I have a hard time with that argument.<<

No one is saying it is that extreme.

<

then why make the statement about waiting 7 mintes for a ride ? That is what you used as a comparison not me right ?

 

Originally Posted By ChiMike

>>BUT YOU HABE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET A FP THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE __ HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN THIS BE ?<<

But that does not negate the view -my point- AT ALL, that while someone gains, someone loses. Maybe the person who loses will learn their lesson and 3 hours later will gain. But then SOMEONE ELSE loses. Rinse and repeat. It's a ponzi scheme. It's a zero sum game.

I'm not saying within the context of that point that there is an unfair advantage. I am simply saying that your or my gain is offset by another guest. Until that point can be refuted, there is no reason to offer up any evidence that FP is NOT a harmless system.

As seen in Dan's point:

>>And this is an important question. Is my benefitting from knowing how to use FP worth all the extra waiting for the masses in the standby line? I don't really think it is, but I'm gonna stick my head in the sand and cover my ears and sing "la la La La LAAAAA", cuz I know how to work the system and get the benefit, and I'm willing to pass my knowledge along to anyone who is willing to learn.<<

And I give him points for passing the info on, but like the AP discounts or anything else outside of the Disney realm, what happens when more and more people take advantage of a leg-up. That leg-up or shortcut no longer is a leg-up or shortcut. Supply & Demand in a vague sense.

When everyone had a Universal Express pass the Universal Express line for Spiderman was just as long or even longer at times than the standby. It's like the infamous South Park Cartmanland episode where he complains about the lines shifting from the ride to long lines to get a FP. Yes, I saw the show b/c of the reputation of this episode (a very good one!).

It's a PONZI SCHEME! Even the folks at South Park know it. How much more obvious can it be?

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55

<I was about to post, but vbdad beat me to it. There's a difference between someone getting an advantage because they arrived early or had more knowledge or whatever, and something being unfair. The bold part of vbdad's post bears repeating - BUT YOU HABE THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET A FP THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE. As long as this is the case, then it's a totally fair system. But of course someone waiting in the slow moving standby line is gonna be grumbly, and I don't blame them.
<

agree -- the discussion was set on fair,not for those who either love or hate.

 

Originally Posted By ChiMike

>>I am listening just fine, but you only view your opinionof it because it affcts you<<

Actually I think it is the complete opposite. I have stated numerous times that I benefit off of FP, but I have taken a more macro view over the situation and have considered how many others are effected.

>> -- ANY ticket system is unfair -- the first people in the park get to ride Dumbo with Mickey - UNFAIR !!!<<

No, they were first in line. Not that I think your using a straw man argument but I have never indicated that I am against first-come first-serve. Actually that has been the drum I have beating for years. Against FP.

>>again to those who do not want to be there at rope drop -- I want to sit in the front for the parade- but I was eating and didn;t get their -- UNFAIR !<<

Again. In agreement with you. First come first serve.

>>I wanted a turkey leg but is 10 pm and they are gone UNFAIR !<<

Not unfair at all, but bad show if Disney is still open under stated operating hours.

>> ditto for anything else you can think of-- the FACT of the matter is the ability to participate in FP is an equal opportunity chance , no difference than anything else-- that is the topic -- not do you like it or not--if anyone is rfusing to listen it is the anti FP people.<<

I'm sorry. I think the same could be said the other way. I have never argued against this whole equal opportunity thought. Just that someone's gain is someone else's pain.

>>The question is not do you like it, it is is the system fair.<<

That might be your question. The topic is FP a thing of the past? I think there is room for all sorts of questions. I won't go over them again and again. I think we all are listening to each other, I am trying to be void of emotion, I hope you are too.

Until you can say, "Mike, when I or you breeze through FP to load, it doesn't effect anyone else" -or- "Mike, you're right FP does make queue wait times increase on an equally correlated comparision" I can't be convinced, nor do I think anyone else should be, that FP is currently ran as a good system on the marco level.

 

Originally Posted By ChiMike

>>it was my way of depersonalizing that --as the sleep in argument has been used by others here...<<

Thank you for clearing that up. I was afraid I was misinterpreted via my poor use of our language.

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55

<I'm not saying within the context of that point that there is an unfair advantage. I am simply saying that your or my gain is offset by another guest.<

all rightbut that has been the argument in that FP is unfair andit is not. But this is life- and it exists everywhere -- and usually most other places it is not part of a fair and equal opportunity system which FP is.

WDW is not the garden of eden...no one who is there is aware of all discounts / secrets / tricks / etc etc - no different than when you travel ANYWHERE...but the fact that FP is available to everyone is FAIR. And that was the arguement that it is not..and that argument is wrong.

 

Originally Posted By ChiMike

>>the fact is that the FP system is fair inthat it allows everyone the same opportunity -- <<

Haven't we got to the point yet where we both realize that I too can say,

"the fact is that the FP system is bad because it allows for someone else to wait less while someone else has to wait longer"

We really have worn it down to a "chicken and the egg" debate.

 

Originally Posted By ChiMike

>>then why make the statement about waiting 7 mintes for a ride ? That is what you used as a comparison not me right ?<<

Not I said the fly.

 

Originally Posted By ChiMike

^^ At least not 7 minutes. Maybe 60 minutes if I recall correctly

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55

<I'm sorry. I think the same could be said the other way. I have never argued against this whole equal opportunity thought. Just that someone's gain is someone else's pain.
<

but Mike this is true for everything...if I get on the tram that arrives at my parking lot asile and youmiss it andhave to wait - my gain, your pain...but we both had the same opportunity. If I buy the last mickey ice cream bar in the cart ( entirely possible the way I eat them) - same thing...If I check in at OKW before you and get the last 1st floor suite and you wanted one and arrived an hour loater - same thing..

I am just not getting the evil in this at all....

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55



<<>>then why make the statement about waiting 7 mintes for a ride ? That is what you used as a comparison not me right ?<<

Not I said the fly.>>


cough cough---your post # 78


" You can't take someone who has ridden Space Mountain for 15 years on 5-7 min waits and now tell them to ride (they have already experienced for 15 years) with a 40 min wait for it."