Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Haven't we got to the point yet where we both realize that I too can say, "the fact is that the FP system is bad because it allows for someone else to wait less while someone else has to wait longer" < no because they had an option of using FP and did not for that ride..
Originally Posted By danyoung >...what happens when more and more people take advantage of a leg-up. That leg-up or shortcut no longer is a leg-up or shortcut. Supply & Demand in a vague sense.< I don't see this as a problem with FP, as it's easily adjustable location by location to fit the requirements of the attraction. Where it is a huge problem now is with the Dining Plan. Demand is so huge that the system is overwhelmed, forcing all of us to book our reservations SIX MONTHS EARLY!! This is just a bad system, but it's working well financially for Disney, so I don't see any changes in the near future.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>all rightbut that has been the argument in that FP is unfair andit is not. But this is life- and it exists everywhere -- and usually most other places it is not part of a fair and equal opportunity system which FP is. WDW is not the garden of eden...no one who is there is aware of all discounts / secrets / tricks / etc etc - no different than when you travel ANYWHERE...but the fact that FP is available to everyone is FAIR. And that was the arguement that it is not..and that argument is wrong.<< Just my opinion, but I think you are standing behind this FAIR defense and letting it get in the way of other points. The fact, again, is that YOU might think it is fair because you have had good experiences with it. Through your own admission once it negatively affects YOU, once it crosses some arbitrary threshold of affecting some stranger to now affecting you, then it will be 'unfair'. The more and more people who use FP, like they do the discounts or tips or whatever, the less effective the system is. This is why I said I think you might be wrapped around this whole FAIR angle too much. Just an observation, not trying to attack you at all VBDAD. The more people who are told to show up at Rose & Crown at 7:35 and make sure they bother the hostess with a request, the less effective the tip. The more people booking AP rooms, the less spectacular the AP benefit. The more people using FP the worse it becomes for everyone. This is in addition to how bad it might affect some in the first place. (Not you VBDad, I've given up on you! ) So consume all of that, digest it, contemplate it, and think of how much easier it would be for everyone if we just did first-come, first-serve on a line at a theme park. Because it's a slippery slope and the more people who use it, the less attractions it's on, the less effective the benefit is with others still at the bad end of the stick. Besides, VBDad, you still haven't proven to me how FP is MORE FAIR than the pre FP days. That's why I can't take your FAIRNESS cloak seriously. Because of you were truly standing up as the last bastion of fairness for Disney's guests you would want the old way back. Nothing was fairer.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>" You can't take someone who has ridden Space Mountain for 15 years on 5-7 min waits and now tell them to ride (they have already experienced for 15 years) with a 40 min wait for it."<< See, this is where my poor writing skills get me in trouble - and in disagreements with people I would othewise agree with. You can't take someone who has ridden Space Mountain for 15 years on 5-7 min waits --->VIA FP<---- and now tell them to ride with a 40 min wait for it WHEN THEY HAVE ALREADY EXPERIENCED THE SAME RIDE for the last 15 years. Not shouting, just trying to clarify what I meant. I think if you understand that, and then follow my posts after that you will see what I was trying to get at the entire time. In no way, with my experience and perspective, would I suggest that Space was 5-7 mins in the summer other than at the beginning & end points of daily operations.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>but Mike this is true for everything...if I get on the tram that arrives at my parking lot asile and youmiss it andhave to wait - my gain, your pain...but we both had the same opportunity.<< But that is a different set of circumstances. That is a disney employee carrying out set operations and cycling through his/her route. It's a luck of the draw sort of thing. It's not like a ponzi scheme. >>If I check in at OKW before you and get the last 1st floor suite and you wanted one and arrived an hour loater - same thing..<< Again, no problem, first-come first-serve. >>I am just not getting the evil in this at all....<< Well, you shouldn't. At least not though my posts. I've already said to everyone else, via a response to Dan, that Evil is not a word I would use. I like typing P O N Z I. It's kinda fun.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>also used 35 minutes for BTMRR in the same post<< Which is my guess (which I should have fleshed out with my writing) of what BTMR average annual wait time would be in 2006 or 2007 without a FP operation. Hope that clears it up. I simply implied too heavily. A verbal conversation would have been much better, but perhaps less heated!
Originally Posted By danyoung >It's not like a ponzi scheme.< You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. OK, I just hadta do the quote from The Princess Bride. But seriously, what's a ponzi scheme?
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>no because they had an option of using FP and did not for that ride..<< Again, chicken and the egg. What cause came first. What is the resulting effect. Chicken and the egg, because once it is used, someone else is given an unfair wait. We will argue in circles.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Just my opinion, but I think you are standing behind this FAIR defense and letting it get in the way of other points. The fact, again, is that YOU might think it is fair because you have had good experiences with it. Through your own admission once it negatively affects YOU, once it crosses some arbitrary threshold of affecting some stranger to now affecting you, then it will be 'unfair'. < not allmy experiences have been good, never saidd that. I have been at EPCOT when FP for Soarin' and Test Track were gone....cest la vie -- my fault for not getting one sooner...so there is perceived bad and some good...I onlyuse it for like 2 rides per park..so I am basing my argument on the fact it is fair --- and it is not an arbitrary threshhold-- I have stated very clearly when I would change my opinion-- when it stops being fair -- if they start to charge for the privieleg and it prices some people out - that would be unfair...( and you kept hinting at pending charges for this) - but until that time it is fair. I couldn't be more clear
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I don't see this as a problem with FP, as it's easily adjustable location by location to fit the requirements of the attraction. Where it is a huge problem now is with the Dining Plan. Demand is so huge that the system is overwhelmed, forcing all of us to book our reservations SIX MONTHS EARLY!! This is just a bad system, but it's working well financially for Disney, so I don't see any changes in the near future.<< And again Dan I completely agree. I am much, much more bent out of shape about the dining situation. Again it's an issue of the users vs. the non-users. Because while someone might say (similiar to VBDad's vein about lines in the summer) that they never were able to afford restaurants prior to the program, the non-users have to suffer with worse menus, worse quality, and higher prices. So others can budget better. To go back to your opening statement, the problem is that they are making less attractions FP but more and more guests are using FP more and more. Which means FP does become a less effective tool because of a smaller supply with a higher demand. That is what I was trying to get at. I do believe it will happen that way. With only the marquee rides with FP with more guests using the system. The result will be longer-out return windows and attractions running out of FP windows faster. But don't misunderstand me, I like this problem, it will only help make FP a thing of the past sooner.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>not allmy experiences have been good, never saidd that. I have been at EPCOT when FP for Soarin' and Test Track were gone....cest la vie -- my fault for not getting one sooner...so there is perceived bad and some good...I onlyuse it for like 2 rides per park..so I am basing my argument on the fact it is fair --- and it is not an arbitrary threshhold-- I have stated very clearly when I would change my opinion-- when it stops being fair -- if they start to charge for the privieleg and it prices some people out - that would be unfair...( and you kept hinting at pending charges for this) - but until that time it is fair. I couldn't be more clear<< Thanks for the response
Originally Posted By vbdad55 < I am much, much more bent out of shape about the dining situation. Again it's an issue of the users vs. the non-users. Because while someone might say (similiar to VBDad's vein about lines in the summer) that they never were able to afford restaurants prior to the program, the non-users have to suffer with worse menus, worse quality, and higher prices. So others can budget better. < and this I will agree with -- I like the system of a straight discount ( for a fee ) that I use in the Disney Dining Experience...that way people only go where they would have gone anyway. Now since I book my restaurants 6 months out I rarely have an issue - but I also would always avoid the 'free dining package periods"
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>OK, I just hadta do the quote from The Princess Bride. But seriously, what's a ponzi scheme?<< <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ponzi" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C harles_Ponzi</a> . It has a wide-range of associations, but in this context I am using it as others would by saying something akin to "robbing Peter to pay Paul" It's like the shell game. It's meant to describe a shuffling with no increase or decrease, a net zero effect. FP redistributes lines and crowds. It does not increase capacity or efficiency. Where there is a gain there must be a loss to make it zero sum. Which is the true effect of a ponzi scheme. Why pyramid schemes or email scams can't work. Hope that helps.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 If Disney is going to continue the free program for instance - then they will need to provide more dining options. I have found it encouraging some restaurants are now being removed from the available list --
Originally Posted By ChiMike Me too. Although it appears to be a temporary blip due to contracts and the such. I would love to see World Showcase removed. I'll give up the various resorts to this all-inclusive cruise line craze if it meant we could get the return of some quality and menu that World showcase used to have. I would love to know the total number of chefs WS has lost in the last three years.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Since this seems to be a two person discussion I almost hate to add anything here but what the heck. I was originally upset by FP, not because it wasn't available to absolutely everyone that wants one, (and it isn't). If 10000 people show up at the same time to get one, a whole lot of people are not going to be happy so let's just drop this "everyone that wants one can get one" garbage. It just isn't true. What upset me initially was the feelings that were being expressed, quite loudly at times, about the people "cutting in front" after they had been standing there for what seemed like years. Yes, I know there were many reasons for this. It could have been an ignorance of how it works. I could have been because they got there to late. It could have been because they had never heard of FP. It could have been sunspots for all I know. The fact of the matter (no this isn't a quantitative study purged from some brilliant persons laptop)is that this was from ACTUALLY hearing and witnessing how much anger existed. People were very, very unhappy and frustrated. They were hot, tired, had screaming kids and the damn line wasn't moving. Just when you thought things were going to start to move again, alone came a bunch of smugly smiling, Fastpass holding, Disney encouraged line cutters. It isn't pretty and even though the FP holder has no reason to feel guilty about this, what I am concerned about is the lasting mental branding that happened while in the standby line. Are they frustrated enough to never come back? I'm sure some are and that is a shame. No amount of statistical jargon is going to make that experience a happy one. I obviously see the merit of FP and I do, on occasion, use it myself. I still can't help but be concerned about what the long range negative is that is connected with it from the majority viewpoint. Not the majority of FP users, the majority of the park guests.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Since this seems to be a two person discussion I almost hate to add anything here but what the heck.<< It certainly IS NOT. Thank you for jumping in, by far, the more the merrier.
Originally Posted By kpwdwfan Recently I overheard a castmember telling a guest that the ratio of fast pass guests to standby guests that get through the line is about 80% to 20%. Don't know if that's true or not but it sure would explain why the stand by line doesn't move very fast. I stood in the standby line for Space Mountain during extra magic hours and the line was near the Orbiter and it only took 30 to 40 minutes. Had this been during the day with fast pass operating it would have been 90 minutes or more I'm sure.
