Originally Posted By Goofyernmost The only time that the "wait lines are not substantially affected" is when you're not in them. If you are in standby you don't need a degree in physics to see just how much it means in additional wait time.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<If you are in standby you don't need a degree in physics to see just how much it means in additional wait time.>> We'll never really know about this until a scientific study is done; as it stands, it's merely conjecture and gut feeling. However, I do know that one CM here has one a somewhat informal test at the HM, and I recall he said wiat times were not much different with FP than from days when FP was not operating.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<However, I do know that one CM here has one a somewhat informal test at the HM, and I recall he said wiat times were not much different with FP than from days when FP was not operating.>> I knew I read it here somewhere... see post #68.
Originally Posted By sjhym4 In fact that person is more incorrect than correct. Disney's own internal studies (that I have seen) says that FP does increase wait times for guests. Its certainly doesnt increase capacity. The reality of FP is that it works great on some days and not so great on other days. So depending on the total in-park attendance the impact of FP can be substantially different. Once again...I have done this many times...the lines are longer just from the simple fact that FP is a math problem. If Small World can load 1000 people per hour and 500 people board using FP then only 500 standy-by people can board. So you say, well therefore it doesnt make a difference. But it does because most guests hold a FP AND get on line for another attraction. Therefore they are indeed in 2 lines at once (their standby and their FP lines). The capacity at Small World hasnt changed but YOUR now in 2 places at once. That means that the stand-by lines tend to be longer than they would be without FP. What Disney expected was that people would grab a FP and go do other non-attraction stuff or you would head over to people-eaters like Hall of Presidents and Timekeeper. And we know who well that worked out. And Disney was surprised when stand-by lines grew so long at many attractions. A good example is Space Mountain which pre-FP very rarely went over 60 mins even on a busy day. But now even on a moderate day the standy-line is often 60 mins or longer. If you need further proof you can look at it this way. If there are 30,000 people in the park...pre-FP a person would wait on a single line, ride, exit then pick another attraction. Today you are holding a FP for one attraction and on line somewhere else so now a 30,000 day is in fact more like a 45,000 person day. Which mean longer waits. It really is a matter of math. If only 500 people in a standby line can load an hour and there are 750 people in standby (which is not alot of people really) then your standby wait is now 90 mins. And thats IF the CM loading is doing a good job of moving both lines and IF the attraction doesnt break down, which completely sends the FP system into a spin. I know lots of people love FP and I wont argue that fact. But the reality (and Disney banks on this fact) FP is really a mental bonus more than a physical one on many days. On slow days you dont need it, on busy days it makes things ugly and on moderate days it can work to your favor. It really depends on how you hit it. But the mental payoff is when you have a FP and walk thru the Soarin queue and see the incredibly long line and say to yourself...better them than mem thats what Disney counts on. (btw...WDW's biggest mistake recently has been to not anticipate Soarins popularity by increasing its capacity). The other reason it works for most of you is that most people who post here arent normal guests. You understand the system and can make it work well for yourself. Plus you most likely make choices based on FP and crowds, so you skip attractions that have long stand-by lines when your not too worried about missing the attraction.
Originally Posted By sjhym4 and one more comment. Many of you who understand the FP system have an advantage, which is ok, but it does have an effect on the day. Lets say you have a FP for Splash Mountain for 11:15 to 12:15 pm but your over in Tommorrowland at 11:15. Well you know that the CM will accept your FP anytime after 11:15 so you show up at 5pm instead. Well lets say that 10 other families of 5 did the same thing as you did that hour. Now you have the 500 people with return times PLUS the extra 50 people who return late. Now only 450 from the standby line will board during the 5pm hour. Increasing their wait time 15-20 mins.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj Good argument above, except for the idea that Disney allots 50% of a ride's hourly capacity to Fastpass. If a ride has an hourly capacity of 1000, there are not 500 Fastpasses being destributed in that hour. Maybe someone can provide some accurate figures, but based on the short length of the Fastpass line, I doubt that more than 20% of a rides hourly capacity is ever allotted to Fastpass. If you had 500 people in the standby line and 500 people in the Fastpass line in the same hour, the Fastpass line wouldn't be a whole have it's own wait time issues to deal with.
Originally Posted By sjhym4 My numbers were hypothetical for easy math purposes. And trying to give out the % is next to impossible since the numbers change based on a variety of things. FP is really a complex mathmatical formula that looks at anticipated attendance, historical traffic flow through the park and in some instances the number of vehicles running during any given hour- like on the Safari attraction. Having said that though, I stand by the above. I worked for Disney for years and worked on attraction capacity data that was used to formulate FP.
Originally Posted By sjhym4 also, I am sure there are several people on these boards, myself included, who have waited in a FP line for 15 mins or more. The longest for me was 30 mins one time and the attraction was running.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj i've waited for about 15 minutes in the Fastpass line, but I've waited in a lot of standby lines, too. I've never experienced a standby line that appeared to be twice as long as what it was in pre-Fastpass days. Your hypothetical easy-math analysis assumes that the length of the standby lines has doubled since the introduction of Fastpass. I've waited in some long lines before, but that would be truly miserable -- and I haven't seen that sort of miserableness in my experience.
Originally Posted By sjhym4 I never meant to suggest that FP automatically doubles the standby line. However wait times have increased across the boards at attractions. As I said above, your experience will depend on the attendance in the park. There are days when all things are equal FP can be a truly wonderful thing. However, there are many days when the average guest does not get to ride more attractions because of the FP system. As for wait times. I spent 10 years of my Disney career in attractions and I can tell you from my experience in all four parks that the average wait time has gotten on the average longer. My example of Space Mountain comes from 3 years in Tomorrowland mgmt. Today, I look at the number of guests in the park and look at the standby line for Space Mountain and shake my head. That number is scary looking sometimes considering how many people are in the park
Originally Posted By LOUDROCK "the lines are longer just from the simple fact that FP is a math problem" Do you mean longer in terms of time until you board the ride or longer in terms of physical length? "Today you are holding a FP for one attraction and on line somewhere else so now a 30,000 day is in fact more like a 45,000 person day. Which mean longer waits". Either I don't agree or I just don't understand how you arrive at this. sjhym4 you are over complicating things by unintentionally cluttering your argument with irrelevancies or misplaced points such as "they are indeed in 2 lines at once". Statements like that are true but so what. If 1 person rides 10 times in one hour because of Fastpass or 10 others ride 1 time in the hour or 5 people each get 2 rides in the hour then the total # of rides is still 10. Ponder this: given- a park has 20 rides, each ride has a 1k per hour guest turnover(capacity), the park is open for 10 hrs thus, the park's total daily rides are 200K or guests were serviced 200K times. If 50K guests enter the park that means that on average each guest got to experience 4 rides. Now, if we add Fastpass to the mix nothing has changed as far as: (1)the # of rides, (2)a ride's capacity, (3)the park's operating hours or (4)the # of guests to enter the park therefore the total # of guests serviced or experienced rides is still 200K. Here is the problem with your argument: you keep using SPECIFIC scenarios like Space Mountain waits or Splash mountain Fastpass returnees. Once again so what. The important point about Fastpass or no Fastpass is the TOTAL waits and TOTAL #of rides experienced per day per park.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN Thank you sjhym4... I didn't think I was imagining this problem. Now try explaining it to people in Texas and Minnesota. They don't get it.
Originally Posted By sjhym4 Its not a matter of how many times you ride. Its a matter of how many places in line you are taking up. If you hold a FP and are in a standby line you are taking up 2 places at one time, not one. Times that by the thousands of guests and your automatically increase wait times.
Originally Posted By basas <<I never meant to suggest that FP automatically doubles the standby line. However wait times have increased across the boards at attractions. As I said above, your experience will depend on the attendance in the park. There are days when all things are equal FP can be a truly wonderful thing. However, there are many days when the average guest does not get to ride more attractions because of the FP system. As for wait times. I spent 10 years of my Disney career in attractions and I can tell you from my experience in all four parks that the average wait time has gotten on the average longer. My example of Space Mountain comes from 3 years in Tomorrowland mgmt. Today, I look at the number of guests in the park and look at the standby line for Space Mountain and shake my head. That number is scary looking sometimes considering how many people are in the park>> Exactly. I stand by my position that wait times HAVE increased because of FP. Average 45 minute MAX waits have been pushed to 75. Busy 60-75 minute waits have been pushed to 120+ minutes. The days of waiting in an reasonable-length line for rides like Peter Pan and Winnie the Pooh are over.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj >>> Average 45 minute MAX waits have been pushed to 75. Busy 60-75 minute waits have been pushed to 120+ minutes. The days of waiting in an reasonable-length line for rides like Peter Pan and Winnie the Pooh are over. <<<<< Funny, I seem to remember 120+ minute waits before Fastpass. I still think that overall, waits are better now than they were in the mid to late 80s. Also, any consideration of the fact that since the parks are now 30+ years old that you have an increasing number of repeat visitors who only queue up at their favorite (most popular) attractions? I can imagine that there are a lot of guests, who on their first visit, would sample a bit of everything -- distributing guests out into places like Hall of Presidents, Timekeeper, Tiki Room, etc. But on subsequent trips, they only hit the highlights like Space Mountain and the others. This would also contribute to longer lines at the more popular attractions -- which also happen to be the attractions with Fastpass.
Originally Posted By sjhym4 That may be partly true, but the average guest visits WDW in moderation so each visit is like a new one and they want to make the most of the experience.
Originally Posted By Labuda "Thank you sjhym4... I didn't think I was imagining this problem. Now try explaining it to people in Texas and Minnesota. They don't get it." I(f I had a voice right now, TDLFAN, I'd be yelling at you! I TOTALLY understood SJHYM's posts! HARUMPH! Welcome back, SJHYM! Great to see you again here, man!
Originally Posted By sjhym4 Nice to be back. Now I am heading out the door to take my first ride on Everest.
Originally Posted By danyoung I've enjoyed reading your posts, sjhym4, and overall agree with them (take THAT, TDLFAN!). And I've always said that FP would be a benefit for the partakers at the expense of the standby-ers. And I agree that FP, when implemented at the wrong attraction or on the wrong day, can be more detrimental than useful. But where I have a slight problem is in this statement - >The other reason it works for most of you is that most people who post here arent normal guests. You understand the system and can make it work well for yourself.< I think people overestimate the intelligence that it takes to figger out FP. With just a bit of thinking (I know, very hard to do on vacation!), you can easily learn FP and how to use it to your advantage. At the beginning of a newbie's visit, yes, I have a great advantage over them. But the knowledge is easily obtainable, so I don't lose any sleep.
