Originally Posted By vbdad55 Again, not to start anything as I do respect your opinions and always read them thru as we all can learn a lot. I however feel your dislike of DVC and FP can cause you to maybe bypass some things you would normally consider. not going to try to win you over on either subject - just play fair.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>--- you can be kind or harsh Mike- I represent a large portion of those who attend Disney in the 3 summer months - as evidenced by crowd size. This is about "US' not me. And to be fair every argument i see here centers on how it affects one segment-- "I can't get a FP bacause I sleep in" - etc.-- so isn't that how everyone views it ?<< That's not my segment. That's someone else's. A certain Spirit I believe. You're missing my point. I have been to Disney in the worst of the crowds. The same people waiting in 100 degree heat in your scenario 20 years ago are still waiting in the 100 degree heat today. The only difference is they are getting skipped by those who took an option provided by Disney to scan their park ticket and then go on and do something else. So you bringing such a dynamic up, about summer months and crowds, to me is irrelevant to the virtues of Fastpass. That dynamic still occurs. It just doesn't occur for you or a segment of people because of how you use FP. That doesn't prove anything but that some do well while others do worse. Goofy is right in his original statement. >>and unfair to relate ti Illinois politicians as I am not taxing anyone more in order to gain benefits for one entitled group or another- so let's not go there please -<< Yes you are. The capacity of the attractions have not been increased due to the implementation of Fastpass at their locale. Your ability to ride Big Thunder Mountain for the 800th time, in June 2011 with no wait, causes a longer wait for someone else. You're a smart executive. Fixed supply, increased demand. Instead of a 60 minute wait with Fastpass, the attraction had a 40 minute wait without, and you have already experienced it 799 times, you probably wouldn't see the value to wait the 40 minutes. Wow, economics, guess what, without FP, without you choosing to wait the 40 minutes and with a fixed supply, demand is now lowered, the queue time lowers even further, and everybody is treated fairly. Every guest should be treated as a VIP; who said that? >>nor am I coprrupt in any way. I use the system exactly as it was designed. If they stop it I will move on- but I see no reason to do that.)<< Not saying that you are. I am saying that the attitude of, "I dont care what it does to people who don't, can't, won't, use FP, I care about my own gain" is akin to the attitude of the very politicians you rightfully think are crooks who are only in it for themselves. I don't judge FP based on my own visiting habits. I base my judgment on what I know to be the macro effect on the park and its guests overall.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 The only difference is they are getting skipped by those who took an option provided by Disney to scan their park ticket and then go on and do something else. So you bringing such a dynamic up, about summer months and crowds, to me is irrelevant to the virtues of Fastpass. That dynamic still occurs. It just doesn't occur for you or a segment of people because of how you use FP. --- however it is virtually equal opportunity to do this- no different than using express lanes in rush hour, using the express lane in Jewel, using a drive thru vs a walk in at the bank.... it is not rocket science to learn how to do.. at the very least for those who do have to wait( and if I already have a fast passs for something lese it could be me)- it was a choice I made
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>So the rosey- everything was 15 minutes view I do not share. I can't believe I always picked just the wrong weeks ( usually was end of June)- but I will not discount your experiences either, just don't discount mine.<< Nowhere did I say anything was rosey. I didn't allude to 15 minute waits. No, what I said was that the crowds have become worse and that even with and because of fastpass, standby lines are just as bad. I am not discounting your experience, simply saying it is no where near a defense for the virtues of FP. I'm okay if you say that "FP works for the way you visit the parks, you like the edge it gives you over the other guests, to their detriment, and that without it you wouldn't wait in lines that you waited in when the attraction was only 5 years old rather than 25 years old" I can accept that. I understand that. What I will always challenge is that your benefit is why it is good for the operation of WDP&R or its guests.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I don't judge FP based on my own visiting habits. I base my judgment on what I know to be the macro effect on the park and its guests overall. --- which would be increased if you took everyone's input and not just those who somehow feel wronged. I have said there are limites to the system and tweaks that should probably happen-- but there are psoitives- especially for the large amount of once a year at best visitors in the summertime. If the crowds are slim in an October day and pne wants to turn it off- throw the covers on and do so- not that hard. WHile it is a fixed amount to be split by demand- not everyone demands the same attractions-- or at the same times. If there was no FP like for Saorin' are you telling me the standby lines would magically decrease ? Of course not- they would increase - and then people would have to make choices like we used to. There were trips were certain rides were always so damned long we never waited for them and skipped them. Kids were young and a 90 minute plus wait ( hell even 60 mionutes) is not going to fly. How did that make one feel after spending $5K-$10K to travel there only to not experience something because you only had one option - WAIT. and the hyperbole over riding something for the 800th time does not help the argument-- I can;t remember ( outside of EMH at the end of the day) where I have ever ridden anything more than twice.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 What I will always challenge is that your benefit is why it is good for the operation of WDP&R or its guests. -- I can state that we use that extra time for a second sit down meal each day - when we used to do one max. That's doesn;t help their operation ? Since I am not standing in some God awful line I am much more confortable about taking another hour out of the day for that. Again not alone in this from visitors I know
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Also if you're hanging around with DVC people who 'think they own the place' it speaks more about your choice of people to interact with. I have been a member for 20 years and know literally no one that fits that description. Most of us are very happy with our purchases but they bought us exactly what we paiud for - nothing more. So who is generalizing now ? Really kinda resent that portrayal..as I know other DVC peole here will also. Name one DVC member on LP that acts that way ? anyone ?<< I was a DVC guest. I hung out at the "DVC pool areas" Trust me, they're out there. My favorite memory/story is the one time I was on a bus leaving the Beach Club after dinner on its way to the MK. A large vocal family from New York was in the back of the bus and I got on. They engage me in conversation and within seconds start talking about how their DVC members this and that. Ask me if I am one. I lie and say no. Then I start getting sold by them on DVC! I suggest that the AP discounts are a better way for me to book my lodging, and, in response, I am mocked for simply not getting it and that they were told by DVC that those discounts would be going away as soon as our economy rebounded from 9/11 and that then DVC would be WAY better. ..sigh.. I've seen too many of the 'I bought it, so it's awesome, and you need to buy it too' members VB. I have not seen them on this site but on other internet sites. >>If they give more perks to Deluxe stays so be it- ( although keep waiting for that Four Seasons which likely will never be built) - I have the value I paid for and more- the $100 discount on the AP is very nice but I do not take it for granted. It was not part of the deal and could disappear at any time - again - so be it.<< You are DVC done right VBDad. You got a phenomenal deal that should make you extremely proud. The early bird gets the worm. I basically got out for the same costs I got in on and that is including all transaction costs. So no harm no foul as far as I am concerned. Thank God I sold when I did because I wouldn't be getting that kind of money now. I do remember you promising to be critical of FP the day equal access is no longer provided by Disney. Well, that day is coming.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Again, not to start anything as I do respect your opinions and always read them thru as we all can learn a lot. I however feel your dislike of DVC and FP can cause you to maybe bypass some things you would normally consider. not going to try to win you over on either subject - just play fair<< The issue with DVC is a simple one. Good for business, bad for the resort experience of those not participating in DVC. Kind of eerily familiar, huh, like FP?! Old Key West is fine. Saratoga Springs is fine. What DVC does to existing resorts, imo, is not fine. My bigger issue is with obnoxious guests DVC and non-DVC. I call out the non-DVC bad behaviors, so I don't see the harm in pointing out some of the nuts on the DVC side either. I can go on and on about FP. I can cover any angle, and maybe I will. I was there the first week it was implemented at Space Mountain and I knew then immediately what was going to happen. I was right then, and I am even more right today. It was born out of a farcical idea that it would make guests happier and allow them to spend more while in the park. Neither happened. All it did was help enable ADD and OCD behavior. The last thing the Disney park experience should be about. I have history on my side. The parks functioned just fine pre-FP. Folks came expecting to stand in lines, especially during peak season, and they stood in lines. If they wanted to avoid lines during peak season, they would show up early, stay late, ride during parades/fireworks. It was a happy little system. I saw a lot of smiles on faces leaving the park for decades. I will agree with you the reduced operating hours, which I do remember you challenging me on in another thread, has made the situation even worse.
Originally Posted By ChiMike hahah .. I'm telling you it the same old circular arguments. By this point I should just create a FastPass Haters FAQ. Spend the time up front and create stock answers to the: "But it saves me time" "I do buy food!" "Who would wait 30 minutes for the Jungle Cruise!!??" .. and then just WHAM. Cut and paste a stock reply just like Guest Relations. lol. VBDad. I have to run away, I will be back and honor your great thoughts with specific responses, but after that, I swear the FAQ will be produced!
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>btw- I remember the exact same waits and add 15-20 minutes at Uni when it was one park. I remember a 2hour + wait in 95 degree heat for Back to the Future and a almost 2 hour wait same day for ET....<< For you. And I am sure for others standing in that line. But at the same time visiting a theme park is nothing but an experience of weighing opportunity costs all day long. A guest will wait in an un-fun line long enough based on the perceived amount of fun they will participate in when they reach load. At some point people will only wait in the line for the amount of time necessary to make sure it is a positive net gain in 'fun'. Some folks make the wrong decision, often based on the park's own attempts to steer them. Kind of like Government intervention in a free market. But for the most part, I believe in the 'free market' of theme parks and wait times!
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Now do I agree there needs to be some tweaks to FP- yes. Return times need to be strict--<< Will never EVER happen. Disney does not want to manage everybody's crisis every day at every park. They don't want to place their minimum wage employees in front of the cross fire of upset people because a monorail broke down, their ECV battery died, or they had to wait 1.5 hours to get their priority seating. Because upon any confrontation, it will always come back to Disney being at fault, whether they are or not. Certainly a college program greeter will not be equipped to ever enforce a rigid policy with no exceptions, nor will they be placed in a position to make their own judgment call on a case by case basis. Operationally, it just can't happen. There will never be a cutoff established that will work. Disney realized this and are simply living with the idea that abuse will be kept at an acceptable level. I don't think they are right. >> there needs to be a limit of # of FP--<< That's not going to happen either. If anything the amount of FPs given at some of the attractions have increased! They are not going to reduce them, to then deal with complaints that they are selling out even more or that the return times are too unrealistic because they paid $55 to park hop and won't be there all day. >> and only certain long wait rides need to have a FP system attached -- all valid concerns.<< This one is. DL has done a much better job of reigning it in. Their Mermaid and Midway Mania rides all have no FP. Ours do or will. Peter Pan, Jungle Cruise and Pooh aren't FP either at DL. DL was also first to give up FP on the 3D shows and Haunted Mansion. While our POTC never had it, their's did and they removed that too. They never placed it on the subs and they never placed it on Matterhorn. Why is that? What does that tell us? Low Capacity and High Capacity they pulled the FP machines out of those attractions or never even placed it. Midway Mania should prove my point, point-blank. It's a 30 minute wait in California. Also in a park short on family rides prior to TLM. Just as MGM is. Perhaps, that regardless of capacity they recognize that it has an artificial, negative effect on Standby waits? An artificial, negative effect on Standby waits. If that alone doesn't prove my point I don't know what does. I will keep plugging away though. -- So I would expect a smart guy such as yourself to come around to my perspective simply for the fact that these reforms as you call out are pretty much unrealistic in the way WDW and FP is run. Considering that as long as FP is around they will not reduce the amount of tickets distributed nor enforce their own rules. If anything they will be expanding the FP program in the future. And then, that history has borne this out since 1999. That WDW places FP on new attractions that DL does not. So, knowing that what you think needs to be done to make the system work, WONT be done, I still don't know why FP is a good thing in your eyes? Now, I get the personal impact for you. We're past that. I'm trying to engage in a theme park geek philosophical discussion. I need your consensus! Will you give it VBDad, will you give it? Will the gentlemen yield?
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>ALso let's look at MK and how many things are down- right now- today..and will be for another 1-2 years<< ALL THE MORE REASON to limit FP. The less capacity the less crowds can be disbursed throughout the capacity of the park. FP distribution really is not adjusted to account for a reduction of non-FP offerings. So, what happens. Standby lines on FP attractions .... are artificially negatively impacted. All the metrics are flawed. They have been from the beginning. The assumptions cannot be kept up to current park conditions. Most guests get a FP and then line up for another attraction (or clog the walkways). The system was not based on this.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Or they get a fastpass and then ride the same ride standby. That means where they might have only ridden once, they ride twice..doubling the wait time for other individuals desperately trying to ride it just once. If people could be a little more considerate of others the system might be mildly acceptable. But, like so many things, that is not going to happen. I will confess that I have done the same thing myself. I once went to Soarin early, got a fastpass and then saw that the standby line was short so I rode it. We got fastpasses for the whole family at that time. I went over to Test Track and used the single rider line and then had a snack. Went back for my fastpass window and rode it again. By this time the line was very long. I smilingly shot up the FP line and rode again. A member of our group decided that they didn't want to ride it again so they gave me theirs as well. So I got off the ride went back up the FP line and rode it for the third time. I actually could have done it two more times due to unused passes by our group. By then, however, I had wasted half my morning on one ride when there were so many other things to see. I'm just one person but I took the places of Three individuals on a ride that had a very long wait. Only one of those places was, in all fairness, mine. This cannot be good or what was envisioned when fastpass was conceived. No it is a very flawed system that is now no longer under control (if it ever was). It is a classic example of the tail wagging the dog.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>however it is virtually equal opportunity to do this- no different than using express lanes in rush hour, using the express lane in Jewel, using a drive thru vs a walk in at the bank.... it is not rocket science to learn how to do..<< A horrible analogy. An express lane does not allow you to drive to two places at the same time. It is not an equal opportunity now, and will become less equal as time marches on. But let's say for the most part it is an equal opportunity. I will concede that to you for the sake of this discussion. Even though a guest supposedly has equal opportunity to participate does not affect the larger issue that parkwide capacity is FIXED collectively among all the attractions. When someone uses FP to get a virtual place in line and then jumps on another attraction they are taking up the space of two guests. They are eating into the daily fixed capacity of the park faster than they should. This causes operational issues, ride vehicle maintenance issues, and intangible value issues that I won't get into on this post. Back to your point, typically, this double-line for one guest issue is okay because the attraction they jump to while waiting for their FP more than likely is not in as high of demand as the attraction they have a FP for. The problem comes about that their use of the FP for the high demand attraction causes that standby line to increase slightly and slightly back up. As this occurs throughout the day the standby line becomes more and more artificially backed up. THEN. FP sells out for the day. You have a sold out FP that is no longer available to guests who might have not been able to participate earlier in the day (which I will concede to you they theoretically had the chance to do). Now, however, they are not confronted with a standby line, but an artificially longer standby line because of all the virtual FP riders returning throughout the day. This is where the old pre-FP way worked better. >>at the very least for those who do have to wait( and if I already have a fast passs for something lese it could be me)- it was a choice I made<< Yes. And its about choices made. It was about choices before FP or in your Universal example. However, now guests are being put in a position to have to visit the park early or deal with an unfair playing field. With evening lines that are LONGER than what you felt was acceptable 20 years ago. And LONGER than they would be if FP hadn't been in effect for the 8 or 10 hours leading up to the evening scenario.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost And I will argue to the death, that the statement that every guest has an equal opportunity to get a fastpass is one of the biggest fantasies ever conjured up by anyone. Of course they don't all have the same opportunity, because the number of FP's is limited, there is not one available for every guest. At some point people are forced to wait longer in a standby line because there were no other options available. Even if every one showed up at Rope Drop, no more then the allotted number of FP's will be given out. So it boils down to..."I got one because I can walk faster then you"...yup... that's equal opportunity for ya. There is nothing equal about Fastpass other then they don't intentionally bar anyone from getting one...providing they are still available. It's the ones that are not available that cause the anger and frustration in a majority of guests that cannot get one because of that little detail.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >> I can state that we use that extra time for a second sit down meal each day - when we used to do one max. That's doesn;t help their operation ?<< I applaud you for being part of the solution rather than the problem. Unfortunately I believe you to be in the minority. It has been stated by smarter folks than me, and I believe at one point officially at some conference that guest spending did not increase as intended with the implementation with FP. In fact, guest spending is the one metric they are constantly struggling with for the last several years. >> Since I am not standing in some God awful line I am much more comfortable about taking another hour out of the day for that.<< I truly understand. >>Again not alone in this from visitors I know<< Make no mistake. I know I am in the extreme minority in my view on this. How can anyone expect guests to give up something as addictive as FP??! I take comfort that other people who understand operations and the design of the park experience to also share my same distaste for today's version of FP.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper Coming from someone who's worked at attractions with and without fastpass, it's amazing how much smoother and easier for both guests and cast the attractions run without it.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>WHile it is a fixed amount to be split by demand- not everyone demands the same attractions-- or at the same times.<< But in some cases they do. At those points the system shows it flaws more than ever. Midway Mania being the current example, and Soarin before it. >>If there was no FP like for Saorin' are you telling me the standby lines would magically decrease ?<< YES!! JESUS YES!!! That’s the point of the last 20 posts. >> Of course not- they would increase - and then people would have to make choices like we used to.<< WHAT?!?!?!?!?! No. It would not. The standby line would decrease. This has occurred every time for whatever reason either Soarin has had to run without FP temporarily. I need you to understand all of this. The supply and demand effects of queues, capacity, fast pass, standby, if I ever hope for you to agree with me. >>There were trips were certain rides were always so damned long we never waited for them and skipped them. Kids were young and a 90 minute plus wait ( hell even 60 mionutes) is not going to fly.<< That’s the whole point. When the supply is fixed. The only way to effect the reduction of demand is to increase price. In this case, wait time is price. If someone is willing to wait longer than you, they are willing to pay more than you, therefore they are entitled to the fixed supply ahead of you. Why you and others love Fastpass so much is that you like the idea of being able to get some of that fixed supply without having to bid higher than the next guy in how long you’re going to have to be willing to wait in a REAL line, not some virtual queue b.s. Without fast pass, you would have to make the call based on the line length. Hence, the free market concept. And you are a conservative VBDad? You sure??? Think of FP as the evil union! (Great now I will only have conservatives supporting my anti FP tirades!! Geez, I hope not) >>How did that make one feel after spending $5K-$10K to travel there only to not experience something because you only had one option - WAIT.<< AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!! The whole theme park industry was built on that concept. Marquee rides that were so good, people would pay money and wait to ride them. It worked fine for decades! Amazing. Let me just say this. Harry Potter is without a doubt the best domestic theme park attraction out there right now. It does not have a fast pass offering not even for hotel guests. People are voting with their wait times to make that $3,000 trip to Universal payoff; they make sure they hit it while there. If they can do it for Potter, they certainly can do it for Test Track or Everest. >>and the hyperbole over riding something for the 800th time does not help the argument-- I can;t remember ( outside of EMH at the end of the day) where I have ever ridden anything more than twice.<< You missed my point. Change it to 100th time. At some point as the number of experiences with an attraction grows, the less one will wait for that attraction. Theoretically, notwithstanding special occasions or companions, you would wait less for the 100th time on an attraction than the 10th. So if in 2011 they run BTMR one day with FP and one day without. And on the day they run BTMR with FP it is a 60 minute standby, you might be okay waiting for 5 minutes with a FP for your 100th ride but not the 60 minute standby wait. However, a brand new guest who has never ridden BTMR might find the 60 minute wait acceptable, because heck, they have never ridden it 100 times. Now on the next day when FP is disabled you have to make the choice for the 40 minutes just like the guest who has never been to Disney. It helps them because they just saved 20 minutes, but hurts you. To me, that is the better scenario. You have to make your call on the 40 minutes not 5 minutes. That is a GOOD thing considering (say it with me) there is a fixed supply. You naturally choosing not to spend the 40 minutes, helps lower demand, and thus the wait, for everyone else. With FP, that natural lowering of demand through the standby wait time is circumvented. THUS WHY SOARIN would have a lower standby wait without FP. Whew, I’m wiped. --- AND PLEASE LET ME BE CLEAR VBDAD BECAUSE I REALLY REALLY LIKE YOU. THE TONE HERE AT THIS SIDE OF THE KEYBOARD IS EXTREMELY LIGHT-HEARTED AS I SIT OUTSIDE ON THIS BEAUTIFUL CHICAGO SUMMER FRIDAY NIGHT. REALLY TRYING TO HAVE FUN WITH THIS AND WITH OUR CONVERSATION
