Originally Posted By OTownWDWguy Mr. X, I totally argee w/ u on Buzz. Yes its SORT OF a stretch cause he is a toy. BUT, the WORLD he INHABITS is a space, sci-fi world, as depicted in his fictional Emeperor Zurg story in TS2 and the cartoon series. So its a lesser of two evils! Either WDI puts Buzz in FL cause hes a toy, or they put him in TL cause Buzz "LIVES" in Space. Obviously they felt TL was better. Same w/ Pooh. Now we know that TDA killed the Bears cause atteandance dropped, not wanting to pay for the AAs, and not wanting to bulid a whole new show building and Q space. That, PLUS the Pooh meet n greet made THEM BELIVE it was a good fit. Yes, Pooh has Engish European origins. BUT, as it is so blatant the orgins of Disney films just by the dialogue or settings, its not so blatant in Pooh. The world Pooh INHABITS is NONDESCRIPT woods. Nowhere in the movie does it say we are in England or the English countryside for that matter. and the ONLY British voices in the movie are the narrator and Owl. Even as recently as 1996 at 17 yrs of age i STILL thought Pooh was 100% American. It wasnt till the movie release on VHS and the books that i realized he was English. Now im NOT condoning that TDA put Pooh in Critter Country but MAYBE this was THIER reasoning, who knows.
Originally Posted By jonvn "For example, I do currently patronize the Tokyo parks." Could that have something to do with where you live? In any case, it is most important that you vote WITH YOUR WALLET. It is the only thing they understand. For example, if the Pooh attraction generates tons of extra visitors who line up and see it in Frontierland, what's the knowledge they will receive from it? That out of theme attractions simply do not matter to the public, so why not continue doing so and save a lot of time and expense. "I will not set foot in the WDSP because I think it is not well done." If I went to France, I think Disneyland Paris is about the last place I'd go. Same with travel to Japan. I don't need to see these things because they are, for the most part, located here. I'd rather go see the country. "Now, that's just one person. But if EVERYONE did that, hey...maybe the company would have to address the problem, no?" That's how it works. The thing is, though is that what you want to see happen does not happen because most people do not care, so they get the greater mass of the park going publilc and make them happy. "They've gone through several shows at the Hyperion to try and find a "crowd pleaser". " I never got to see the very first version of Steps in Time, but heard it was good. I saw the second, and it was OK. Typical Disney theme park show. After that, they had Blast, which was pretty popular, and now Aladdin, which is also popular. It's not really that bad a record. "If they'd had a slammin first year," But you see, there are many reasons for whatever attendance levels they got in the first year. They know what they are, they know what the public who went had to say, they know what the public who did not go have to say. But the Hyperion theater shows, particularly as of Blast, were very much crowd pleasers. And ToT was moved up only a very short time, if at all. It was planned from the beginning to be added. All their parks that I've seen have had a lot of adjustments rather quickly. TDS might not have, but then, they spent so much money up front, it would have been difficult to do so.
Originally Posted By jonvn "If this sentiment were true, wouldn't 'Disney's California Adventure' be a huge hit?" In the first year, it made it to the top ten amusement parks in the country. That makes it a pretty good hit. But, again, there are lots of reasons that the park did not achieve its max hoped for attendance, including bad (or no) marketing, the economy, and terrorism. People, on the whole, just don't notice or care. Take a look at post 38 here. That person thinks Pooh in the frontier is great. That's fine, but it shows that people, some of whom are even very interested in the subject, just don't have a strong interest in theming. People do like nice atmosphere, and nice decor. Gardens and such. That sort of thing keeps people in the park longer, and keeps them paying for items while they are inside. Disney does a very good job of decor and gardening. Beyond that, the theming aspect of what they are doing is falling down on them, and it has been for quite a while.
Originally Posted By whitetiger >>I'm honestly a little confused about your post, WhiteTiger...<< Mr. X, Well I was hoping to make the point that Critter Country has evolved from the original Frontierland corner into a land really with it's own unique theme. From Indian Village to Bear Country to Critter Country c. 1988 to Critter Country c. 2003. I thought I was clear that I wanted Pooh in Fantasyland at first, but after I started thinking about it I realized Pooh had a more down-home feel to it with not many fairy tale elements. Yeah, I once said Kangaroos and Orange Tiggers don't belong with Southern Americana characters a year or so ago. I should've made that a little more clear that that statement was when I first heard of the Pooh ride rumor. I also said "I now think that Critter Country has evolved into Fantasy Country." What I meant by that was it has become a hybrid land mixing Fantasy and Country elements- whether that country is Bayou Country or British Countryside. It still is "country" as the name [Critter Country] states. The fantasy element of course would be animals that talk, wear clothes, and express themselves much like humans. The land brings us humans into their world, like ToonTown invites us into the world of Toons. I should've made it more clear that Pooh doesn't necessarily belong in Fantasyland. >>And, just for clarification, I think that FLORIDA is the only "properly located" Pooh ride...<< The reason why I didn't mention Florida is because I don't care for the Pooh ride disguised behind a medieval circus tent facade. The facade and queue in Tokyo seems more appealing to me... So I can see how you might get confused on where I stood. I just wanted to express how my opinion on the whole Pooh idea has evolved much like the theme of the land.
Originally Posted By jonvn That evolution has been a continued breakdown of the theme to the point now where it is basically unrecognizable and incomprehensible. What is the sense of having a Fantasyland theme and a Frontierland theme if the same ride can be applied to both areas and not be considered out of place in one of them?
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> Yes, Pooh has Engish European origins. BUT, as it is so blatant the orgins of Disney films just by the dialogue or settings, its not so blatant in Pooh. << The thematic mis-match may be apparent in the new Pooh shop, where (according to miceage.com) the interiors will look like an English cottage while the exteriors will be more reminiscent of early Western America. Oh, well.
Originally Posted By Brown Monkey What's the big deal? Every land in Disneyland is thematically mis-matched if you were to really look that hard into it.
Originally Posted By Disneyland Resort Others opinions are wonderful, sometimes. They mean little to me. I ride/enjoy rides and attractions - others and/or their opinions do not ride things for me, see shows for me or have a good day at amusement parks(themed or not) for me. Everyone I have mentioned this 'rumor' to thinks its a really horrible idea. Theme park = rides and attractions. A proven winner. An overpriced, non family friendly, non family entertaining, elitest golf course built at the resort before more rides/another park/more family offerings are built = is a really horrible idea. Truthfully .. this ill concieved 'links idea' totally guarantees far less popularity and far less attendance yearly for the DLR than DCA has ever had. Just what TDA and the DLR need eh? -- <a href="http://geocities.com/ocserct" target="_blank">http://geocities.com/ocserct</a> RCT 1 & RCT 2 Parks..
Originally Posted By Disneyland Resort > > A golf course is a lot better than what the alternative might otherwise be. < < A better idea then another theme park, an entertainment center, something/anything FAMILY oriented? You really can't be serious. An adult exclusive golf course over ANYTHING family entertaining or accomodating? I am extremely glad some people do not make Disney Anaheim decisons as to what is and what isn't 'family' entertainment. Truthfully .. if the 'lot' was just converted into a huge grass park-like field it would get better attendance and be far more family entertainment fulfilling than a golf course, a lot less elitest too. -- <a href="http://geocities.com/ocserct" target="_blank">http://geocities.com/ocserct</a> RCT 1 & RCT 2 parks
Originally Posted By whitetiger >>What is the sense of having a Fantasyland theme and a Frontierland theme if the same ride can be applied to both areas and not be considered out of place in one of them?<< Sorry, but Pooh definitely would not belong in Old West Frontierland.
Originally Posted By Disneyland Resort Presently the Disneyland Pooh & Friends meet & greet is in Frontierland. The open book and meet & greet area has been placed at the entrance to Esmerelda's Cottage where Clopins(i think) Food Cart used to be.. Also in the same location the entrance to the old petting zoo used to be. Poohs new location all day, everyday until Critter Country opens again - deep in the old west, in Frontierland. -- <a href="http://geocities.com/ocserct" target="_blank">http://geocities.com/ocserct</a> RCT 1 & RCT 2 parks..
Originally Posted By arstogas >>>What is the sense of having a Fantasyland theme and a Frontierland theme if the same ride can be applied to both areas and not be considered out of place in one of them?<<< In principle, I agree with you, but given that you concede (albeit I admit it's not necessarily for the better) that the Bear Country/Critter Country area has devolved to where it doesn't really have a discernible theme to articulate, it is what it is NOW. It might have been better to re-Christen the place "Bear Country" and just find ways to make this the prime habitat of Brer Bear, Pooh Bear, and whatever other bears they could think of... the upcoming "Brother Bear" movie could have opened up an opportunity to create a unifying, stronger theme for the area. Maybe not. But the point I was getting to, is that though a thing like POOH probably works better in a Fantasyland setting, I think there ARE some stories/characters that could live in more than one themed area. The most obvious, to me, is LILO AND STITCH. Though I love all things sci-fi and sci-fantasy, I don't think it's inconceivable that a STITCH attraction could be designed that would make for a good fit in Adventureland. I have one idea for an attraction makeover, involving Stitch and this area. But I'd be probably hung in effigy for mentioning it, so I'll refrain. Perhaps Pooh as a classic dark ride is just an odd choice for Critter Country. I don't like the very simple adaptation that's been made to the Country Bear Playhouse and surrounding areas. To really make this attraction fit more aesthetically, I think a more solid "descent" into a hundred acre woods setting would have been better. As it is, I agree with you that it doesn't work in this area, Jon... I just think with the right overall treatment, it might not have been such a clash of attractions and theming. And sadly, you're right in that very few people will ever notice or care enough to make an issue of it. So it'll probably happen again.
Originally Posted By jonvn The thing is that putting Stitch anywhere outside of Fantasyland further damages the park's theming. These areas were there for specific reasons, and particularly, Fantasyland was there for a specific reason. There are two problems here: 1) They are making the whole park have the theme of one section, and 2) They no longer seem able or willing to create attractions that do not have a Fantasyland theme to it. It's a long term problem, not limited to recent times. It's just getting worse and worse.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> What's the big deal? Every land in Disneyland is thematically mis-matched if you were to really look that hard into it. << I'm sure your sentiments are shared by some of the leading people at the DisCo. And, once again, please notice how your, or my, or any other person's philosophy and perceptions about the way projects should be dealt with and how standards should or should not be observed or applied have almost nothing -- or very little -- to do with money and budgets.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt The biggest conflict I see with Pooh in Critter Country is how does his story, setting and characters relate to those in the general vicinity? In other words how do you tie together Pooh with American history and folklore like Tom Sawyer, paddlewheel steamboats, indian canoes, and Uncle Remus stories? Yes, they've done a wonderful job with the queue area (from what I can see) but the basic premise of him being there makes no sense what so ever. "Better they use the 3rd gate land for something "unique" and "creative" (assuming they learned their lesson with the DCA debacle) for once that appeals to a much wider spectrum of the population than just those that know how to play golf." I don't play golf but I think that a well designed golf course isn't such a bad idea. The one component missing from the Disneyland Resort is recreation. Between Disneyland, California Adventure and Downtown Disney they've go the family thing pretty much covered, maybe they ought to round out their offerings a bit.
Originally Posted By arstogas >>> In other words how do you tie together Pooh with American history and folklore like Tom Sawyer, paddlewheel steamboats, indian canoes, and Uncle Remus stories?<<< Well, you more or less can't get to Critter Country without going through New Orleans' Square FROM Frontierland, though I readily admit there's remnants and reminders of Frontierland that stretch the river. But given that transition, I have no problem with Critter Country being its own "land" that owes little to Frontierland theming. But there should be a GRACEFUL integration of elements for any attraction going in there, and they've not gone far enough. I think the Country Bears and SPLASH were good complements, good neighbors. But Pooh is getting wedged in there, retrofit, without as much care to make it seem at home, and it is an odd juxtaposition. I understand where you're coming from with the Fantasyland thing, Jon, that the Disney animated features were to find their physically realized homes there... But I think Disney animated features have evolved just like the parks have, and if care was taken, I think especially in the New Tomorrowland the way it was SUPPOSED to be conceived, stories like STITCH or TREASURE PLANET or ATLANTIS go just fine in "that" kind of Tomorrowland. In the 70's era Tomorrowland? Definitely not. That's the land of Asimov and Bradbury and John Glenn. But I think a Tomorrowland that is (and I'm not happy with DL's half-hearted effort as it stands today) conceived as a sci-fi/fantasy spaceport, is broader and can support these kinds of extensions. Certainly WDW's can... if SONNY ECLIPSE can live there with Buzz Lightyear around the corner, certainly Stitch, Milo Thatch or Silver could. The question is, what kind of Tomorrowland do we want? The next step in this is what happens to FRONTIERLAND if HOME ON THE RANGE is a hit? We could see this land evolve as well. I have to admit, I would find this a sad turn. Perhaps if the parks were just BIGGER, and there were physically ways to integrate both the fantastic legends of PECOS BILL and the more "real" folk adventures of DAVY CROCKETT, without either intruding on the other... I think that could work. But Disneyland isn't that big.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Well, you more or less can't get to Critter Country without going through New Orleans' Square FROM Frontierland, though I readily admit there's remnants and reminders of Frontierland that stretch the river." I think Frontierland hugs all the way around the river. For example, the rafts to the island are in Frontierland, not New Orleans Square. The fries store is located in Frontierland (if I recall correctly), next to the spot where the Frontierland ride Columbia is docked. You actually lead directly into Critter Country from Frontierland. New Orleans Square is the area above that raised portion that surrounds the river. And there has always been at least a "New Orleans Street." The street area was considered part of Frontierland. "I think especially in the New Tomorrowland the way it was SUPPOSED to be conceived, stories like STITCH or TREASURE PLANET or ATLANTIS go just fine in "that" kind of Tomorrowland." That may be, but that kind of Tomorrowland is basically Fantasyland, and that kind of Tomorrowland (as well as the rest of the areas of the park) were created as separate areas to house separate types of entertainment and to keep them unique and comprehensible from one another. There was even a recent rumor saying that a Little Mermaid ride was going to go into the CircleVision building. And why not? If you can put one cartoon character there that is set in an improbable setting like Buzz Lightyear, what's another? "The next step in this is what happens to FRONTIERLAND if HOME ON THE RANGE is a hit?" They'll probably put in a carousel or some other spinner themed to that cartoon. But look, lots of people seem to like this sort of thing, and don't see any problem with it. These people, I think, are generally younger, and do not realize what these areas were originally meant to be for. In a few years, when the Columbia gets permanently turned into Capt. Hooks pirate ship, the whole park will have gone from being an interesting place for people of different ages and interests to an 80 acre kiddy park. "and there were physically ways to integrate both the fantastic legends of PECOS BILL and the more "real" folk adventures of DAVY CROCKETT, without either intruding on the other... " Odd you mention Pecos Bill. He's in the Golden Horseshoe. It's Slue Foot Sue's Golden Horseshoe. She was his girlfriend, you see, and if you look at some of the etchings on the glass, you'll see the two of them. But how is that ok when this other stuff I'm talking about is not? Because these things were depicted as art as part of the decor of this building, not as cartoon characters come to life. But hey, I don't run the place, and they've been doing this for so long that it's not going to stop. So what are you going to do....
Originally Posted By arstogas Eh. I see an obvious difference between a retro sci-fi/fantasy Tomorrowland as home for BUZZ LIGHTYEAR, and the very provincial fairytale element of THE LITTLE MERMAID. I don't think too many people would NOT see that as a clash of theming. The little "Ariel's Grotto" in its tucked away place between the Castle and Tomorrowland's entrance works fine, given the subtle blend in the rockwork and the way the path kind of keeps the two separated. Any closer, you'd have a problem. I agree with you as to using characters as ornamentation versus the heart of a bonafide attraction, but in the case of Frontierland, I think you could have both, IF the attractions were designed to accomodate each other appropriately. But you don't want cartoon cows singing and dancing in Fort Wilderness on TSI. That sort of thing would just be awful. Which is probably why it will happen...
Originally Posted By arstogas And just for the record, the ornamentation and rustic work on that little "Fry Snackstop" or whatever it is, where the Columbia docks, is more or less evocative of structures on the Bayou and near the Mississippi Delta. Regardless of Frontierland wrapping around... I think they made a conscious decision to use an amorphous sort of design so that it would work with both NOS and FRONTIERLAND. And it does, while being specifically proprietary to neither setting.
