Originally Posted By DVC_dad The rpoblem with feminism is that it is no longer about advancement of women. Its about... something very much different than that. It's very similiar to how GreenPeace is no longer about the planet. It's a political movement now, and very very different than what it was founded to be.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The rpoblem with feminism is that it is no longer about advancement of women. Its about... something very much different than that.<< Such as?
Originally Posted By barboy I got another one for you X about women power over men. Place: how about the US again. Females have a power in the form of a civil liberty that males don't have: draft registration
Originally Posted By barboy Kartoon your 40 looks amiss; I produced an example of a profound power that women over men in the US --abortion-- and then you bring up 'thinking things through' on the men's side as if that is a counter. Both men and women can(or can not think) things through so I don't follow you here. Again women have an absolute right on fetal destruction or nurture irrespective of the potential father's position.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Again women have an absolute right on fetal destruction or nurture irrespective of the potential father's position.> But that has been the case since the dawn of time, not due to feminism. Women could always (though it was dangerous) try to self-abort, or go to whoever in the village "helped girls in trouble." It goes on today in all countries, including those where women's status is a long way from equal. Feminism may have brought about safe and legal abortion, but then think about the flip side: outlawing it means women are forced to carry to term against their wills by (presumably) a male-dominated society and lawmakers. And the simple power to terminate a pregnancy is simply a function of being the one carrying the child, and long predates feminism.
Originally Posted By barboy Dabob, where you at Dude? First things first. What's up with the mini abortion debate? On this thread I'm not looking to talk about the history or global prevalence of abortion, why abortion is available nor whether it should be a protected practice. I just wanted to take X up on his challenge of "and this(women having more power than men) has happened where and when?" I showed that women have more power than men in the US in the specific areas of abortion and civil liberties(rights against the gov't) in regards to mandatory draft registration for males.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Why do feminists hate Sarah Palin?<< Because non-feminists love her.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan They hate that she was selected BECAUSE she was a woman, not because she was actually, you know, qualified to be president. It was an insult. They resent that she was selected ahead of many more qualified women who were capable and probably could have handled a Katie Couric interview without sounding like a dunce.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Nice try but wrong. Oh it sounds good and all, but please spare me. Like I said before, feminism is no longer about the advancement of women. There is no conservative woman that the feminists would approve of.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains I still think they picked her because they really didn't want to win. I think when McCain first started his campaign all the way up til right before Palin was selected the Republicans really wanted the office... But Palin was picked because they new the best thing to do was cut and run - leave the mess for a new party to clean up... Now I do not think that Obama is a God or even a miracle worker. I think he will hopefully work with both parties and try and find a way to dig us out of this hole we are in.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Dabob, where you at Dude?> Brooklyn, USA. <First things first. What's up with the mini abortion debate? On this thread I'm not looking to talk about the history or global prevalence of abortion, why abortion is available nor whether it should be a protected practice.> You may not be looking to do that, but that's what you raised, albeit inadvertently, by claiming that women have greater power than men "in the US" due in part to abortion. My point is that it makes no sense to talk about abortion as an example of women having "more power" than men vis a vis feminism in the US. (As you put it "I produced an example of a profound power that women over men in the US --abortion"). This power has always been there, far before feminism, and is hardly confined to the US. In fact, it exists for women even in countries where they have the lowest social status.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Palin was picked because a). she was a woman; b). she appealed to the base. If you doubt the a) part, consider: how many men with impeccable "base" credentials could they have chosen who were far more qualified? Who could have actually stepped in and become president if necessary, but have unquestionable conservative bona fides? A lot. So why not choose someone conservative AND more qualified? See a). A third reason is McCain felt he was losing and needed to shake things up, and choosing someone who would have become the first female VP certainly did that. Generated tons of interest, got more people to watch their convention, etc. etc. But again, a male wouldn't have done that, so we're back to a). And yes, being so unqualified did strike a lot of women as patronizing and insulting. The day it was announced, a women from my building told me how patronizing a choice it seemed to her. AND she ticked off several GOP women who would have been more qualified. Unfortunately, they all were moderates or pro-choice or otherwise "suspicious" to the base, so they were out.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Oh it sounds good and all, but please spare me.<< Well, you asked a question, I answered it. You were the one who predicted the election was all over when Palin was selected. You were quite excited about it, certain that she was the magic bullet. You didn't see at the time what an insult it was then, and you are in denial about it now, even after the election was lost and polls have revealed what a drag on the ticket Palin was. I can't help you with that. And I can't help it that team McCain viewed "feminists" as this huge voting block, that would vote for anyone with female parts. They decided to get cute and it cost them the election. Oh well. >>There is no conservative woman that the feminists would approve of.<< "The feminists" isn't a political group. There are liberal and conservative feminists. Would Democratic feminists approve of a conservative woman? Probably no more than conservative feminists would approve of a liberal feminist. What feminism is, was, and always will be about at its core is that women have equal opportunity. Equal pay for equal work. That's not such a fringe, outrageous thing, yet it still threatens the hell out of some people even in the year 2008.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder And let's not forget my favorite about Palin, her barbaric stance on abortion.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad I disagree, on almost All points. But I agree that Palin was not the best choice. But we aren't debating that, or that wasn't my point. I expected her to be more competant, more qualified, and more intelligent than she turned out to be. You may want to believe that I live in some denial about her. I don't. I did say that she was the boost the GOP needed and after the acceptance speech, I made the claim you mention. I was wrong. Turns out, she wasn't ready to play with the big boys and girls. Back to the point. I do understand that there is no single official group that calls themselves "The Feminists" just like there is no single group that calls themselves "The Liberals." Let me short cut this. I would bet any amount of money that there are overwhelmingly more Democrat voters that think of themselves as Feminists than GOP voters that do. Why is that? Because "groups" of people buy into the lie that the Democratic Party will champion their cause. Like Prop 8 in CA, it's just not the case. However, Obama making direct mention of Gay rights is very promising. How much can a President do? Hopefully a lot. But it's still a state level issue.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I disagree, on almost All points." Do you agree with her stance that not even pregnancies resulting from rape and incest should not be aborted?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Like Prop 8 in CA, it's just not the case." Your understanding of what went on here is not nearly complete.
Originally Posted By GrandOldLady i will be gone soon becaus that terrble cancer is killing me now I love all of everyone and i will prey from heaven soon for you fine people here on this place that loves disneyland
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Females have a power in the form of a civil liberty that males don't have: draft registration*** This is a "power"? Come on, barboy, how weak an argument can you make here? I could sort of see your point on abortion (although in terms of mens' rights, about the only way that could possibly work is if a court had the ability to ORDER a woman to carry out a delivery she didn't want to go through...messy all around if you take that path), but this one is silly. And pre-dates feminism by about, well, forever. The fact that the government decided a woman is too weak to serve in the military is somehow "power to them"? No. Doesn't make sense.
