Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Every anomaly isn't some deep seated plot to disenfranchise someone because they had a long line or had issues voting...> That would depend on whether the "anomalies" were intentional or not. For instance, according to this thread: <a href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/MsgBoard-T-125171-P-5.asp" target="_blank">http://mb.laughingplace.com/Ms...-P-5.asp</a> ...there was in VA a concerted effort to keep the number of voting machines low in a heavily Democratic area in order to lengthen the lines (and thus discourage people who don't want to wait that long). They asked for more voting machines and were turned down. Did this kind of thing happen in FL? I'm not saying it did, I'm asking. Because if it did, then yes, that's an attempt at suppression. If it can be shown that Gov. Scott & Co. deliberately made sure that Democratic-leaning areas had fewer polling places and/or voting machines per x-number of people compared to Republican-leaning areas, that would do it. Anecdotally, that's what I saw. All the 3-4 hour lines they showed had a heavy minority component; I didn't see any such lines filled with nothing but white people. Perhaps there were some - I'm just saying what I saw on the news. The same was true in OH and VA, by the way. If that's indeed the way it was - 2 hour-plus lines in minority and largely Democratic districts, much shorter lines in whiter and more Republican districts - you have to ask yourself why? Were there more polling places and/or voting machines per x-number of people in those areas? That would be the simplest explanation, unless minority voters came out to vote in double or triple the percentage of white voters... usually, the white participation rate is somewhat higher, so it's hard to imagine that suddenly the non-white rate is double or triple that of the white. And if it's not that, then fewer places and/or machines seems most likely. Why was that so? Who made that decision? Were requests made for more machines in Democratic areas that were turned down, as in VA? I'm not saying I know the answers here - I'm just saying that long lines CAN be a sign of attempted suppression. Not necessarily the case... but certainly not necessarily not the case either.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Here is a huge part of the problem in Florida. There were 10 (I believe that number is accurate) Consitutional Amendments on the ballot in Florida, on top of all of the State, County, School Board, City, and Special Taxing District positions that were on the ballot. The wording in the Amendments was VERY lengthy. If you had to read through each one AND vote on all the other items then it wouldn't suprise me if it took people 15 minutes or longer to cast a ballot. My precinct had 10 "stations" available to work on the ballot. 10 stations times 10 minutes (just for simple math) means they could process about 60 voters per hour. There was 12 hours of available voting which means a precinct could process 720 voters in the time alloted. Again, this is completely theoretical and I understand that. In my precinct there are 1,694 registered voters, more than twice the capacity at our precinct. 1,143 registered voters in my precinct actually cast a ballot. Assuming we all waited until that day, we too would have been waiting well past 7pm. Particularly if a large portion of us turned up after 5:00pm. Now, I have to believe that a number of my neighbors took advantage of early voting or cast absentee ballots. My ballot was 4 long pages, front and back while some communities had as many as 10 pages. While the Supervisor of Elections sends out sample ballots and they are available at the precincts as well...how many people do you think show up at the polls knowing what the various measures are and come prepared to make a decision on them? My guess: less than 10%. So, mix a heavy turnout with a ballot that was not easy to get through and you can guess what the outcome will be. In Florida we went back to paper ballots after massive complaining about the electronic machines a number of years ago. (What did that cost us and where are all those machines now?) A friend of mine (white) voted in downtown Miami. He waited 6 hours to vote. There were only two precincts in the downtown Miami area but he blames himself for not voting sooner, as he should. Moral of the story: maybe we all need to take more personal responsibility for this situation instead of looking to blame the Republicans, the Democrats, or little green men from other planets.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 < There were only two precincts in the downtown Miami area> What?! Part one of the problem, right there. <but he blames himself for not voting sooner, as he should.> Well, yes and no. When NY had that big Christmas Day/evening snowstorm a couple of years back, many roads all over the outer boroughs were impassible for quite some time. I absolutely had to get somewhere on Dec. 29 or so, and I ended up being really late. Was it partly my fault for not leaving more time to get there? Sure. But was it also the fault of the city sanitation department for not clearing the roads as quickly as they said they would? Yes also. Both things can be true. <Moral of the story: maybe we all need to take more personal responsibility for this situation instead of looking to blame the Republicans, the Democrats, or little green men from other planets.> Could your friend have avoided as long a line as he faced by voting earlier? Maybe. (Though some early-vote lines were horrendous as well). Should FL have had more places to vote in downtown Miami? I would say yes. Both things can be true.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney Only 2 precincts in downtown Miami? And you don't think that's absurd? I live in a suburb in a small-ish city in CA and there were 3 precincts within 1/2 mile of my house. We had 9 offices, 11 propositions and 3 measures to vote for. I walked in, voted and walked out.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney >>>Should FL have had more places to vote in downtown Miami?<<< Ya think?!
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Moral of the story: maybe we all need to take more personal responsibility for this situation instead of looking to blame the Republicans, the Democrats, or little green men from other planets.<< Little green men are not on trial here. But people who actively work to suppress votes really should be. And it happened, like it or not.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Some more fun facts: In my precinct, 1143 cast ballots as I mentioned. 463 of those ballots were cast during the 8 days of early voting. 190 of those were cast via absentee balloting. So, 653 (57%) were cast prior to election day. No surprise that we didn't have long lines at the polls on Tuesday. My neighbors made my day pleasant because most of them voted before Tuesday. (For what it is worth, 696 of my neighbors voted for Obama, 400 for Romney, 4 for others (including one for Roseanne Barr) and 2 people (guilty) didn't select a Presidential candidate.) Now, you can argue, I suppose, that a precinct should be prepared to handle the maximum capacity of its voters on election day but that doesn't seem to be a very economical approach. You can argue that the SoE should take a look at the early voting numbers and make sure the precincts have the capacity after taking account how many people chose to vote early. But, that is likely impossible considering the planning and logistics that need to take place to get the voting equipment out to the polls and also considering early voting ends only two days before the election and absentee ballots are accepted that day. So, the human element remains the X factor in all of this. Some will try to blame those in leadership for discoloring the process or for being scheming and shrewd. I suggest with 8 days of early voting and even more opportunity for absentee balloting that the blame needs to fall on those who procrastinated...plain and simple. At least that is my defense of Florida.
Originally Posted By andyll <<Nobody HAD to stand in a long line. Every Floridian who did not procrastinate had no trouble voting>> People who try to exercise their constitution right to vote on the day that is specified in the constitution are not 'procrastinating'. I personally would never mail my ballot. I feel voting is important enough that I don't want to trust it to the USPS. In my town we can hand in my mail in ballot at the early voting places which I do. If I couldn't do that I would vote in person.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I suspect my friend was exaggerating about the number of precincts in downtown Miami. I have no idea how he would know the answer. The point was that he blamed himself, not Governor Scott or the Republican machine.
Originally Posted By EdisYoda Insulting that comment on little green men is. Vote in June I did (long time mail to Dagobah takes!)
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <So, the human element remains the X factor in all of this. Some will try to blame those in leadership for discoloring the process or for being scheming and shrewd. > I would blame the leadership if either: a). there was a problem with ridiculous lines in previous elections and/or early voting and they did nothing to alleviate the problem or perhaps even made it worse by cutting early voting, when it's only becoming more popular... which does seem to be the case; or b). there were fewer places or voting machines in Democratic-leaning or minority areas than in Republican-leaning areas, and this was systemic, leading to consistently longer lines in those areas.
Originally Posted By EdisYoda In Ohio, in the Democratic leaning urban areas, early voting on weekends was virtually unavailable (a few pockets here and there had it), while in the Republican leaning rural areas, weekend early voting was more available. Gee, I wonder why!
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<The point was that he blamed himself, not Governor Scott or the Republican machine.>> I'm getting a little sick and tired of this constant refrain of "the voters should have some personal responsibility and should have early". What about the people in charge of setting up these polling places? Or those that are in charge of deciding how large the ballot should be, or how many machines to have at each location, or even how many locations to open? What about their "personal responsibility" to the voters to do their jobs correctly to ensure that people can vote in a reasonable period of time on voting day at the polling places? Sounds like they need to step up take some of the blame for this mess. Obviously just offering early voting isn't enough to avoid long lines and something else should have been done.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 < What about their "personal responsibility" to the voters to do their jobs correctly to ensure that people can vote in a reasonable period of time on voting day at the polling places? > That is, you know, their job. It's not like we haven't had elections before. They're supposed to look at previous elections, learn some lessons if voting was difficult or too lengthy in certain areas, and fix that to make it run more smoothly. Voting should not be an ordeal. That doesn't mean it should be in and out in 5 minutes for everyone, but it certainly shouldn't be a 4 hour ordeal. And if DEFINITELY shouldn't be a 4 hour ordeal in some areas of the state, and 5 minutes in and out in others, especially if that was intentional.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And if DEFINITELY shouldn't be a 4 hour ordeal in some areas of the state, and 5 minutes in and out in others, especially if that was intentional.<< Ding! Ding! Ding! This isn't about personal responsibility. It's about people trying to screw with the votes and affect the outcome. It shouldn't be explained away or ignored. It should be prosecuted.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Voter suppression by conservative Republican governors is real. They've taken a page from the Dixiecrat Jim Crow days, to keep citizens not like them from having a say in our government: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPsl_TuFdes" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...l_TuFdes</a> "I don't want everybody to vote. Elections are not won by a majority of the people. They never have been from the beginning of our country and they are not now. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down." -- Paul Weyrich, The Heritage Foundation
Originally Posted By skinnerbox The rhetoric coming from wahoo is simply stunning. I'm waiting for him to next claim that women who are raped should share in some of the responsibility because of the way they were dressed.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 He never said anything like that, SB, and IMO that's over the line. Let's keep the discussion to the topic at hand and not disparage like that. I don't always agree with wahoo but he seems like a good guy and I can't believe he'd be anywhere near "she shouldn't have dressed that way" territory.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Sorry, Dabob, but I disagree. It's the conservative judge who always uses that argument to vilify the rape victim, i.e., "she had it coming." This is what I see wahoo doing. He's blaming the voter for not using the absentee ballot. He's not acknowledging the clearly obvious voter suppression attempt by Rick Scott and his election officials to make voting as difficult as possible for Democratic-leaning districts. Everyone should have much easier access to voting. No one should have to forced to use an absentee ballot if they don't want to use one, especially in a state like Florida which has a proven history of vote caging absentee ballots from overseas, given the large percentage of Floridian minorities in the military. The purging of tens of thousands of eligible voters from the registration rolls, caging of absentee ballots, shortening early voting hours, reducing voting equipment in heavily-leaning Democrat districts, multi-hour waits to vote... taken altogether, it spells out deliberate voter suppression. And I'm tired of Republicans making excuses for it. It is akin to blaming rape victims for how they are dressed. It's the same thought process, the same twisted rationale. And it's wrong.
