Originally Posted By Mr X >>>Either that or carrying an intense aversion to having the bathroom counter space being taken up by containers of liquid foundation and eyelash-lenghtening formulas.<<< LOL.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "In actuality, there has been not even the slightest suggestion that a "cure" is being sought. Granted, there is rather a lot of denial going on." You have GOT to be kidding. Is it the nature of Dougs on this board to play the semantics game? From the linked article: "The Rev. Ted Haggard emerged from three weeks of intensive counseling convinced he is "completely heterosexual" and told an oversight board that his sexual contact with men was limited to his accuser." "This is a good place for Ted," Ware said. "It's hard to heal in Colorado Springs right now. It's like an open wound. He needs to get somewhere he can get the wound healed." "He is completely heterosexual," Ralph said. "That is something he discovered. It was the acting- out situations where things took place. It wasn't a constant thing." No SUGGESTION that he's cured? Please. This guy obviously has had a long standing problem with his sexual feelings. To try and characterize it as an isolated event is yes, more denial. However, they're also attempting to tell people here that he's over all that, he has no more of these naughty feelings, that he's CURED of them. There's no other word for it. If you don't think that's what they're saying, then offer up another one. I say he's in denial by saying he's cured. "100% heterosexual" is just another pharse for cured. Period. As for the mocking, this joker deserves every last bit of it. It's a pity he has to put his family through this, and he just makes it worse with stories like this. He's just the latest in a long line of hypocritic losers. If he really wants to do a service for humanity, he should come out of the closet, admit who he is, and tell the world that it isn't a sin to feel like he does. But no, we're being told the dude has it on for those wimmen, 100% all the way. Disgusting.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>This guy obviously has had a long standing problem with his sexual feelings.<< Yes. >>To try and characterize it as an isolated event is yes, more denial.<< Yes. (As I myself said back in post #51.) >>However, they're also attempting to tell people here that he's over all that...<< Yes. >>...he has no more of these naughty feelings...<< Yes. >>...that he's CURED of them.<< No. >>There's no other word for it. If you don't think that's what they're saying, then offer up another one.<< I don't have to offer any other words. I just have to look at what they actually said: >>...where Haggard has been and where he is headed... He needs to get somewhere he can get the wound healed... That is something he discovered... What has been termed Haggard's "restoration"..." >>"100% heterosexual" is just another pharse for cured. Period.<< Because it is being said, "period," that makes it THE final word? How anyone can claim this is beyond me. >>As for the mocking, this joker deserves every last bit of it.<< Yes, he does, but the rest of us do not. And the hyperbole is also misapplied, as usual.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> I don't have to offer any other words. I just have to look at what they actually said << Only if you give them any real credibility - and why would you? It's these people that he has surrounded himself with (the "church") who are CAUSING the feelings of denial and self-loathing that he experiences. They're encouraging him to continue the charade of being someone who he's not. They're using positive reinforcement - much like you'd train a dog. It doesn't work. Which is good because it just points up the resilience of human nature. But in the meantime, these people believe it does work. They believe it because they've built an entire contruct of believing in things that have no basis in reality - what's one more crazy notion when you already hold so many others? After all the jokes are told, haggard really is a tragic figure. He's planted his two feet firmly in the control of people who are delusional and who believe that they have special powers nnd insight into the human condition. The scariest part of this are his comments about wanting to go into psychiatry. How appropriate.
Originally Posted By DlandJB After all the jokes are told, haggard really is a tragic figure. He's planted his two feet firmly in the control of people who are delusional and who believe that they have special powers nnd insight into the human condition. >> No, they believe that God can do anything. They don't have the power, but God does. We don't have insight into Haggard's heart, what led him to this relationship, why he feels it was a sidetrip rather than a new road. Only he knows the truth. Time will tell. He's not getting a free pass from anyone for declaring himself one way or another. You are right to not trust what you hear because he hasn't yet earned back the right to anyone's trust. I say many, many prayers for this guy's wife and family. I think this must be harder on her than on anyone.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Yeah, she's the biggest victim in all this, I agree. And god may have the power to change, but then again maybe god got it right in the first place.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 As someone from my church once said "if God turned all gay people straight, where would all the choir directors and church organists come from?"
Originally Posted By ecdc >>No, they believe that God can do anything. They don't have the power, but God does.<< Faith in God has its place - this isn't one of them. The problem with belief that God "can do anything" is that he doesn't do anything or everything. There's an old cliched question, "Why does God hate amputees?" The obvious point being that God never causes an amputee to just grow a new arm or sprout another leg. Every "miracle" is simply a question of choosing to believe it's a miracle. That's what faith's all about, and that's fine. But it's also why faith expectations shouldn't be imposed on others. Any time God is supposed to be able to do something and doesn't, there's always an excuse that protects the dogma, and if souls need to be chucked under the bus to protect that dogma, so be it. If God's supposed to be able to cure homosexuality (and plenty of Christians believe he can, regardless of whether the word "cured" shows up in the Ted Haggard story or not) and there's someone out there who isn't cured, then it's their fault. They didn't try hard enough, didn't pray hard enough, didn't have enough faith, didn't get the support they needed, etc. Any explanation will suffice, except the one that says the belief of the church is wrong and that God doesn't cure homosexuality because it isn't a sin. Every time God does something "miraculous" for one person, it's fair game to ask why God doesn't do it for another. I don't begrudge the Smart family, or the Ownby family at all for saying their prayers were answered and that miracles do happen. If one is religious and something joyous happens in one's life, then it's natural to credit God. But it's mighty curious why God would return these kidnapped children to their families, while other children turn up mutilated in a field somewhere. (At least if I were John Walsh, I'd find it troubling at best.) My only point is that what constitutes a miracle or God "doing something" should remain personal. I'm not about to tell Ted Haggard that he can't believe God told him he was straight or helped him overcome homosexual temptations. But too many Christians don't stop there: God changed so and so, or did such and such, ergo, he'll do it for you. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>The problem with belief that God "can do anything" is that he doesn't do anything or everything.<< I understand where you are coming from. People who place their faith in Faith alone will inevitably be disappointed. Worse, there are many who make Faith their object of devotion, leading to the very questions you cite: Why isn't every faithful person healed? Why doesn't every faithful person prosper? For many thoughtful Christians, Faith isn't a simple slogan or formula, the outcome of which is based on the skill of the one who believes. The way this story has been presented frankly surprised me. I was fully expecting the usual, "I have been cured; God has forgiven me; Now you must forgive me, too." Instead, while there is still strong denial, there is also acknowledgement that a magical "cure" has not made it all go away.
Originally Posted By friendofdd Thanks, ecdc, for being reasonable. It is a breath of fresh air after the anti-religious posters who insist that people of faith are inferior in their thinking and living. Only Mr Haggard knows, and he may be very uncertain, whether he is: a) heterosexual having done homosexual experimentation b) bi-sexual or c) homosexual and publicly denying it. He has shown himself a fool and must make great effort over a period of time to reach restoration, a biblical concept that has nothing to do with changing from homosexual to heterosexual.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>For many thoughtful Christians, Faith isn't a simple slogan or formula, the outcome of which is based on the skill of the one who believes.<< Absolutely. I think most Christians have a realistic view of faith, God, and the nature of miracles. But those that don't seem all too willing to impose their views on others, and as is often the case, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. At least they sure did in my church, and they seem to in the public arena. Of course, it also garners more ratings for news media when the headline is "Crazy Christian: Dinosaurs Died Out Because Noah Didn't Have Room for them on the Ark."
Originally Posted By DAR <<Crazy Christian: Dinosaurs Died Out Because Noah Didn't Have Room for them on the Ark.">> Well if you recall, the dragons and other beasts were left off because they were laughing to hard when Donald was loading them up.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Because it is being said, "period," that makes it THE final word? How anyone can claim this is beyond me." How anyone can claim this fraud and hypocrite ISN'T claiming he's "cured" is beyond me. So what are we going to do? And as for hyperbole, given that Haggard nor the people around him have no sense of reality, there aren't derogatory terms strong enough to apply to them, especially when the fraud they commit is done in the name of God.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 And of course, after a period of "introspection" or "healing" or whatever, he can always open his own church again if he wants. He founded this current church, he could do it again. And he'd probably find enough schmucks willing to follow him (if not as many as before) to keep him in meth and boys for a long time.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>How anyone can claim this fraud and hypocrite ISN'T claiming he's "cured" is beyond me.<< Then I guess we're just beyond each other. >>And of course, after a period of "introspection" or "healing" or whatever, he can always open his own church again if he wants.<< Again, I was surprised that this article makes it clear that Haggard is being steered in other directions.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The people within his current church are trying to steer him in a different direction, naturally. I don't think they really want the church to be thought of as "Haggard's church" in the public mind. What I was saying is that eventually he could found another church just like he founded the first one. I wouldn't bet against it.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>The people within his current church are trying to steer him in a different direction, naturally.<< I am not sure whether you mean his specific church, or denomination. He resigned from his church and is not returning. The article is unclear, but it implies that there is a group from his denomination that is urging him to move on, and literally move away. At least one person in this group is saying that the door is not closed to ministry, however. There is another panel involved that seems to be making it clear that Haggard should seek another type of ministry. At least one member of this group is not in Haggard's denomination. That would be H.B. London of Focus on the Family. He's from the mainline Nazarene denomination. Whether Haggard would be able to pastor a church again is unlikely. Sadly, some things are more "forgivable" than others. When Jim Bakker (PTL) was facing allegations of financial impropriety and fraud his followers rallied around him. The moment it became clear he was embroiled in a sex scandal, that support crumbled. He and his handlers fought very hard to discount the charges he was involved in homosexual activity. They knew that for many of his followers, that would be unforgivable. Sad, but true.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "Just for the sake of argument... There are cases of men in prison who have sex with other men because women are not available to them. Are all of these guys then considered gay? Not all of them. So I put that forward as an instance where men have sex with men who are not gay." Well, I have a friend who was in prison (long story), and he lives in an area where there are a lot of ex-cons living there. He tells me that when they get out they don't stop having gay sex. The thing is, most of them rationalize it and think that because they don't take in the rear they are not gay. About Haggard...if he's saying he's 100% heterosexual...that doesn't gel with what he did. If a straight man is going to cheat on his wife, don't you think it would be with another woman? How is any straight guy 100% straight if he's had sex with a man? I don't care if it's an isolated case...you did it and continued to do it. It's not like he had an experimenttal one night stand. He was seeing this male prostitute regularly. So...I'm not buying it. I also don't think the "matching" masters in phsychology that he's planning on getting with his wife will patch things up...
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder This is now about a "cure", plain and simple. <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cure" target="_blank">http://dictionary.reference.co m/browse/cure</a> <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8234503/" target="_blank">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/82 34503/</a> <a href="http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/23/dobson-haggard-cure-gay/" target="_blank">http://thinkprogress.org/2006/ 11/23/dobson-haggard-cure-gay/</a> (comments section contains coarse language) <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparative_therapy" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R eparative_therapy</a>
Originally Posted By DlandDug I will again endure a scolding when I say that post #79 is inherently dishonest. The first link is simply a dictionary definition of the word "cure." Since "cure" was not a term used in the story at hand, it is entirely irrelevant. The second link discusses a Focus on the Family "Love Won Out" conference in which they talk about "reparative therapy" for homosexuals. There is nothing about Haggard or his recent announcement anywhere in the article, nor was there ever any discussion of "Love Won Out" in the original article. The third link is to an article about an appearance by James Dobson on the Larry King program. The headline boldly states, "Dobson: I Want To Cure Ted Haggard of Being Gay But Don’t Have Time, It ‘Could Take Four or Five Years’." The provided transcript, however, says nothing of the sort. The closest it comes to anything like that is in this exchange: >>KING: When you say, Doctor, when you say “restoration†you mean restore him from being gay to not gay or what do you mean? DOBSON: Yeah, probably that, too.<< The fourth link is to a Wikipedia entry about so-called "reparative therapy." So of the four links, only one even addresses the issue at hand, and that one is dishonest. Now... IF James Dobson, or Ted Haggard, or anyone actually connected with the issue at hand comes forward and claims that the good reverend was, indeed, gay, and that he is being intensively repaired, or has been cured, or whatever will satisfy the demands of this side issue, then there will be something to discuss. But that will still have NOTHING to do with the story at hand, since it nowhere claims that Haggard is gay, was gay, and is in need of repair, cure, or whatever. (Not saying that I necessarilly agree with them-- just that I am forced, unlike others here, to rely only on what is actually being said, as opposed to what I really, really want it to believe it says.)
