Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<But I also believe there are still good people with the in the Catholic faith. Which is why I still stick with it.>> Most of us here on WE who post regularly understand that about you, DAR. No one questions that. I just don't understand why you jump in with both feet like you do, getting really defensive in threads like this. Your kneejerk statements similar to "don't lump me in with those clowns" or "the anti-religious types are gonna bash folks like me again because of this" are quite predictable now. Why are you so defensive about your religion?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>But I also believe there are still good people with the in the Catholic faith. Which is why I still stick with it.<< Which I think most people can understand and respect. So why so sensitive to being lumped in when you're part of the organization? As someone who frequently agrees with Dawkins, Hitchens, and Maher (oh my!) on religion (though I don't always love their condescension) I rarely hear actual critiques of their actual arguments. The focus instead always seems to be on the fact that the new Atheists are rude for even making the criticisms. And frankly, I think that's because there usually is no response. These guys are usually right, which causes discomfort, which causes people to lash out against them. Of they're accused of being unfair for generalizing. To listen to believers, no one actually believes the things the Atheists are criticizing. "Dawkins is going after a religion I don't even recognize." Well, okay then. But the truth is, hundreds of millions of people worldwide, including millions of Americans DO believe these things. And I always remain perplexed at the defensiveness on the part of believers, who seem more interested in circling the wagons than in distancing themselves from those people that are being criticized.
Originally Posted By DAR <<Why are you so defensive about your religion?>> Because these types of threads eventually turn into a way to look down at those of us who religious and for once I wanted to prevent that. And just wait until X chimes in.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Because these types of threads eventually turn into a way to look down at those of us who religious and for once I wanted to prevent that.<< Well I think your ounce of prevention worked: I'm sure Bill Maher and Seth McFarlane will stay away now. Oh, and your above statement doesn't really jive with: >>I'm not referring to LP here. I'm speaking of the anti-religious people out there in the real world.<<
Originally Posted By Princessjenn5795 "Because these types of threads eventually turn into a way to look down at those of us who religious and for once I wanted to prevent that." The only problem is that you did not prevent it, you provoked it by bringing it up. I actually know how you feel; I have stopped responding to a lot of the anti-religious rants because I do sometimes find them a little offensive. But the attitudes you see on here sometimes are caused by people like this guy. I get so mad when people call themselves Christian and then act in ways that are exactly the opposite of what Christ actually taught. The bigots and hypocrite and judgmental jerks give all of us a bad name, especially since they are the ones that typically seek the limelight. I understand why you feel the way you do DAR but picking a fight about it (which I think you did intentionally because you have been on here long enough to know what would happen) is probably not the best way to go.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***And just wait until X chimes in*** In point of fact, I have been purposefully avoiding chiming into topics such as this one lately (not saying I've skipped all of them or anything, just the ones where I feel my comments will be met with nothing but scorn). You might have noticed that I rarely if ever reply to or engage with Josh anymore since our discussions always come down to the same argument, and on the same front I feel I've said my piece as far as Catholicism is concerned as well. And yet here you are DAR, goading me to jump into the fray. Why is that, DAR? Need more ammunition to fuel your poutrage or something? Need people like me to *prove* that you are the persecuted one here?
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Wow a religious leader proves to be a hypocrite, how shocking. Meanwhile the majority of us who continue to attend religious services lead a good life, don't but into the lives of others will somehow become linked." I find it curious DAR that you are so defensive right out of the gate. If you feel that your personal brand of Christianity doesn't fit the mold of the hypocrite in the article why not just say so and condemn him? Or, perhaps, just stay quiet on the matter.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt One thing I've noticed is that Christians of all faiths are very adept at playing the victim. Of course the real issue here is not those poor Christians with good hearts, but the incredible level of self loathing that closeted gay men like George Alan Rekers have. So much so that they will go through great lengths to conceal their true desires, even to the point to block, or in some cases, remove the rights of those in the LGBT community through their political connections. In some cases it's even closeted gay politicians who are posing as straight and issuing laws and edicts that oppress gays and lesbian Americans. And yet these very same men solicit sex with other men online, in public bathrooms, or wherever they can. Instead of condemning them and their despicable action, DAR comes here and sidetracks the discussion into a sympathy fest for Christians who "lead a good life". Cry me a river. Rather than victimizing yourself DAR, what you should be asking yourself is what can you do to expose these liars and obstructionists for what they are. Since it means so much to you, perhaps your actions will help put some shine on the tarnished image of Christians and conservatives around the nation. Pouting and throwing tantrums here sure isn't going to do you much good.
Originally Posted By DAR <<Or, perhaps, just stay quiet on the matter.>> Unless you agree with us then you can say as much as you want to.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Most people go about their religious lives trying their level best to adhere to their faith as much as possible. When a member of that faith or the leadership does something terrible, it's as natural for people to say "I am a member of the faith but I don't condone THAT" as it seems to be for others to say "I don't see how you can still want to be a part of THAT religion." It happens every single time. What I'm saying is, I am standing up for DAR on this one. He didn't condone any of that stuff, and he is saying he is actually pretty open and non-judgemental about people's lifestyles. And still, perhaps because there are so few conservatives still around these parts, he gets painted as the bad guy. To put it another way, all of us disagree with other Americans and yet we don't all pack up and leave in frustration. We look at the bigger picture, and that's what many people of faith do when their leaders get embroiled in some scandal. Put yet another way, if Bill Maher or Christopher Hitchens were to get involved in something unsavory, does that mean the points they make are meaningless?
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Let me be clear that I am not painting DAR as a bad guy. I'm simply questioning why he was so defensive out the gate on this topic. As I said, this story is not about hypocrisy as much as it is about the self loathing that causes these creeps to do just about anything within their power to thwart the advancement of LGBT rights. The fact that they are Christians has little to do with the fact that they are frauds, and would be whether they were religious zealots or not. Thus, I find it fascinating that DAR, who is a practicing Christian, has somehow turned this story, and the subsequent outrage, into an attack on Christianity when that isn't even the case.
Originally Posted By DAR WhatI'm pissed about is this type of hypocrisy. What I'm pissed about is these priests who are not being held accountable. What I'm pissed about is the belief that, well you belong to this church so you must feel the same way attitude. That's what I'm pissed about, being lumped in with a group of individuals that make me ill.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt I get it DAR. "That's what I'm pissed about, being lumped in with a group of individuals that make me ill." Since no one had the chance to do that here before you posted in #2 I'm kind of wondering why you went out of your way to make that snarky comment in your original post.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox OK, DAR... who in your life has "lumped" you in "with a group of individuals" that make you "ill"? Dr Hans has a valid question that you seem to be deliberately evading. Right out of the gate, in post #2, you went on the defensive before anyone on LP could lump you in with that group of individuals who make you ill. You are defensive about this stuff. No question. All we are wondering, is why? Who in your life is doing this, DAR? Who is lumping you in with these people?
Originally Posted By DAR <<But here's the rub on that third one: Most people do belong to churches that endorse bigotry against gays on some level. Dabob2, for example, does not. He can take the high road and has a leg to stand on when he criticizes the Mahers or Dawkins of the world for generalizing. But most can't. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to be absolved of responsibility for the bigotry of their churches (hi, Catholics) while not leaving their faiths behind. So we get DAR's response: I don't believe that, I just belong to an organization that does, so please don't come after me>> That post is essentially saying because I belong to a church I condone and endorse bigotry. Win for DAR. Boom
Originally Posted By ecdc >>That post is essentially saying because I belong to a church I condone and endorse bigotry<< No, it saying just what it says, which is plain English. It says you belong to an institution that endoerse bigotry, but you want no responsibility for that. >>Win for DAR.<< You couldn't even understand what I wrote. Not really a win at all. But I'm glad you think so highly of yourself.
