FULL TANGLED SONG!!! "I Can See the Light"

Originally Posted By Witches of Morva

ORWEN: I wish Glen Keane hadn't been taken off as Rapunzel's leading director. I trust his vision for fairy tales much more than John Lasseter's.

 

Originally Posted By mawnck

>>I'm not sure if will find any audience whatsoever now thanks to a terrible marketing campaign (in a long line of bad campaigns for WDAS product) or whether it just isn't distinct enough in the plethora of CGI kids' movies.<<

I think it's plenty distinct enough from the parade of snark-o-ramas, although the marketing seems to be designed to hide this fact as much as possible. I just don't see how they're going to pry the family audience away from Harry Potter. Word of mouth can't work if nobody goes to see Tangled in the first place.

My understanding on the bridging technique is that between it and the hair, this movie was going to be in production for years, so they dialed back their expectations and concentrated on the hair.

My test screening had very little final animation in it, but what I've seen since looks like very well-executed personality animation, done in straight-up CGI with impressive art direction.

To me the squirrel clip looks like straight-up CGI too, and isn't TOO terribly far off from the style they ended up with.

If you were looking for Fragonard, then I guess the glass is a bit less than half full. But I don't know if a mainstream audience would want to watch that stuff moving for 75 minutes. Sounds like a good idea on paper, but having seen it done in shorts and commercials, it's best in small doses.

 

Originally Posted By Erjontem

Thanks Mawnck and Leemac for your responses. I think the time has come for me to lay all my concerns and worries aside for Tangled and just see 1) the movie itself; 2) how it performs in the real world.

I have quite a few misgivings, which I think are common and justified. But it's like friction with your significant other right before a really exciting trip: just stop thinking about it and enjoy the ride!

 

Originally Posted By skinnerbox

<<Ultimately The Bear and the Bow should never have got this far into production for the creative visionary/director to be removed. There are always other ways - it just seems Lasseter likes to remind folks who is boss every now and then. It has left a lot of career Pixar folks questioning what the company stands for anymore - it has become just another animation factory (albeit the most successful in town - for now).>>

I'm in complete agreement on this one. The changes should have been made earlier, and I do not believe they necessitated the removal of Brenda from the project. The leadership had no problem with the film three years ago, when production started. So why is it so terrible now?

I also believe that Lasseter is being stretched too thin, commuting back and forth between NorCal and SoCal every week, managing two animation studios instead of one. Why did anyone think that a 53-year-old family man would have the energy and motivation to keep this up, week after week, month after month, year after year?

<<The movie needs to be a success - otherwise I just don't know what will become of Disney animation in SoCal.>>

One of two things will happen:

1) WDAS will be shuttered and Lasseter/Catmull will return to E-Ville permanently.

2) Lasseter/Catmull will return to E-Ville and other leaders will be tapped to manage WDAS.


If I were a betting person, I'd put my money on the first scenario:

* If faced with a Sophie's Choice proposition, Lasseter/Catmull would obviously pick their baby, Pixar, over WDAS. But no one would be able to effectively manage WDAS with Lasseter still acting as Chief Creative Officer, so the downward spiral would continue.

* Iger absolutely hates the unions, so closing WDAS solves that problem, since Pixar is non-union.

* Pixar Canada continues to slowly evolve and grow, so more work can be tossed their way in the future, possibly even feature film production.

* Keeping Lasseter close to home and solely focused on Pixar would help to bolster his weak management skills. He's too much of an ADHD head to divide his time between Pixar and WDAS and WDI. He needs to concentrate his efforts on one thing, and Pixar would be the obvious choice.


I predict that if Tangled bombs at the box like PatF did, WDAS is not long for this world.

 

Originally Posted By utahjosh

<I predict that if Tangled bombs at the box like PatF did, WDAS is not long for this world. >

I don't know if I want to live in a world where there aren't any Disney Animated Feature Films.

 

Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA

Hey, if Walt Disney Animation can survive the likes of 'Robin Hood' and 'Fox and the Hound' and 'The Black Cauldron' -- it can certainly survive 'Princess and the Frog' and 'Tangled.'

 

Originally Posted By utahjosh

Although Glenn Slater is not my favorite lyrist, Alan Meken might be my favorite composer. I really wish Steven Schwartz and Menken got along better and worked together more.

"I See The Light" was a beautiful song. I still have the main chorus melody running through my head, and the message overall is really beautiful.

I have high hopes for Tangled to be great.

 

Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA

I have a short story to tell, as part of an analogy for this song in 'Tangled.'

One of the bands I used to follow was 'Chicago.' Perhaps you know them for 'Saturday in the Park' or '25 or 6 to 4' or 'If You Leave Me Now' -- they were big in the 70s, sort of had a resurgence in the 80s. Lately, they've become a bit of a caricature of what they once were.

But I digress...

In 1994, 'Chicago' produced an album called 'Stone of Sisyphus.' It was supposed to have been a 'new direction' for them. Peter Cetera had left the band, they wanted to do fewer power ballads, and more rock.

Due to a disagreement with their record label at the time, the album was never released. In fact, "Stone of Sisyphus" essentially sat in an archive, unheard.

Time marched on, management of record labels change, and so they decide that, due to all fan interest (yes, there are 'Chicago' fan sites, message boards and fans) they will release 'Stone of Sisyphus' in 2008 about 15 years later.

So, when I finally got to hear it two years ago, it was more of a curiosity than anything else. The band's sound has sort of 'moved on' from 15 years ago, and although it was fun to hear, it wasn't anything ground breaking. It was sort of a typical Chicago album with the famous horn section and so forth.

That's what I feel like when I hear this song from "Tangled." It almost sounds like a melody that Alan Menken had tucked away in a file cabinet somewhere, or something that was cut from 'The Little Mermaid' or "Beauty and the Beast."

Even the orchestration seems to be imitating the sound of those movies from the early 90s.

It's a sweet song, but what does it have to do with the look, feel or overall theme of 'Tangled.'?

Not sure, but my guess is not much.

 

Originally Posted By mawnck

>>It's a sweet song, but what does it have to do with the look, feel or overall theme of 'Tangled.'?

Not sure, but my guess is not much. <<

Well you guess wrong.

How many times we gotta tell you? The. Marketing. Is. Deceptive.

 

Originally Posted By Erjontem

Inasmuch as I consider the marketing for Tangled to be deceitful (apparently) and disappointing to me, I have a feeling it's actually helping the movie. Check out the amount of Facebook activity on the Tangled page, as well as the comments below every YouTube video. (Was there this kind of viral Facebook marketing going on for PatF by the way? It's a very smart move -- and it has to be several orders of magnitude more efficient and cost-effective than traditional offline marketing.)

Anyway, people on non-fan-oriented websites -- which I'll take as a proxy of the movie's real audience -- seem to be eating this marketing up!

 

Originally Posted By leemac

<<Hey, if Walt Disney Animation can survive the likes of 'Robin Hood' and 'Fox and the Hound' and 'The Black Cauldron' -- it can certainly survive 'Princess and the Frog' and 'Tangled.'>>

Jim - sadly there is a huge difference - actually three.

1) TWDC demands a far higher return on its investment these days - if it isn't making money then it doesn't have a place in Iger's Disney.

2) The production costs of these movies is becoming unsustainable. The Princess and the Frog was over $150m before marketing and distribution costs. It made $105m domestically (and another $160m internationally) - i.e. it didn't make a penny on its first-run. I'm told that Tangled is approaching $250m. That is huge.

3) The animated marketplace is so crowded now. Should Disney just focus on the more successful Pixar brand?

I can see a future where WDAS doesn't exist any more and all animation is handled by Pixar Emeryville and Vancouver.

 

Originally Posted By leemac

<I don't know if I want to live in a world where there aren't any Disney Animated Feature Films.>>

Personally I'd rather have a world where the likes of Chicken Little and Bolt don't exist. If they are the best that WDAS can churn out then perhaps it is best to turn out the lights.

 

Originally Posted By leemac

<<I really wish Steven Schwartz and Menken got along better and worked together more.>>

Sadly Alan is a diva - when it was Ashman/Menken he was the junior partner. Once Howard died it gave Alan the opportunity to be the senior partner. He sees Glen as someone he can mould. It is almost embarrassing to see how Alan treats him in public - it really is a subservient relationship.

Stephen doesn't need Alan as he has the one thing that Alan craves - a bona fide lasting musical legacy in Wicked. They are going to collaborate on the redux of Hunchback if it even gets off the ground. Stephen is wonderful - a true gent.

 

Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan

Both of my kids, ages 16 and 19, had zero idea as of yesterday that this movie was coming out at all. They'd never heard of it. Now, I realize that they are not the target market, but that still surprised me. Both of them go to the movies fairly regularly and hadn't seen a poster or trailer that got their attention at all, let alone made an impression.

I really hope this is a good movie and that it does well. I'll definitely go check it out. But man, I swear some spy from Warner Bros. is a sleeper agent at Disney's marketing division attempting to ensure no one cares about this movie. It's baffling.

 

Originally Posted By Witches of Morva

ORWEN: There are SOME of Alen Menken's songs that you have to hear over several times before they grab you. "I see the Light" is one of them because the first time I heard it, it just seemed 'passable' as a song. But now that I've heard it as many times as I have, I really like it a lot.

ORDDU: I didn't particularly care for 'Under the Sea' the first several dozen times I heard THAT one. But over time it has become much more enjoyable. Sometimes you just have to allow his music to absorb you and then you become a witch who thinks she's flying higher and higher on her broom stick than she's ever flown before...

ORGOCH: Got oxygen masks?

 

Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA

<Not sure, but my guess is not much. <<
Well you guess wrong.
How many times we gotta tell you? The. Marketing. Is. Deceptive.>

It's not the marketing I'm talking about.

To me, the overall sound of that song from "Tangled" sounds very much like Menken's other work for Disney.

It could have been lifted from "The Little Mermaid" -- easily.

That's all. The song and orchestration is very derivative of Menken's other work.

 

Originally Posted By mawnck

>>what does it have to do with the look, feel or overall theme of 'Tangled.'?<<

>>It could have been lifted from "The Little Mermaid" -- easily.<<

Like I said ... it fits Tangled perfectly. ;-)

 

Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA

<Like I said ... it fits Tangled perfectly. ;-)>

Well, maybe it does. You would have the advantage of having seen a rough cut of the movie. I have not.

My point is this -- if a song for the new 'Tangled' has a tone, orchestration and feel that harkens back to 'The Little Mermaid' 20+ years ago, then, to me, the new song is too generic, and isn't specific enough to the movie or even the time it's being created.

Example: 'Part of Your World' lyrics...

'What would I give, if I could live out of these waters --

What would I pay, to spend a day warm on the sand --

Betcha on land, they understand,

bet they don't reprimand their daughters --
Bright young women, sick of swimmin' ready to stand -- and
ready to know what the people know...'

The lyric are very specific to Ariel, who is under the water and thinking about her dream in that specific part of the movie. You really can’t take ‘Part of Your World’ and put it in another movie.

Or ‘Under the Sea’

‘the seaweed is always greener in somebody else’s lake --

You dream about going up there, but that is a big mistake'

‘Under the sea, under the sea –
Darlin’ it’s better, down where it’s wetter, take it from me’

Again, very specific to what’s happening in the story, and can only be from “The Little Mermaid’

With this new one, from ‘Tangled’

‘And at last I see the light
And it’s like the fog’s been lifted

And at last I see the light
And it’s like the sky is new
And it’s warm and real and bright
And the world has somehow shifted

All at once, everything is different
Now that I see you’

You could easily give that song to Ariel and Eric, Aladdin and Jasmine, Hercules and Megara or Peabo and Celine – and it would work just fine. Because, from the sounds of this, it’s just not specific to the movie.

But, that's what happens when you create a movie like 'The Little Mermaid' when Ashman and Menken were part of the process, and 'Tangled' which has gone through a huge number of story, concept and name changes, not to mention casting and every other aspect.

In WikiPedia, it reads -- "Menken said he attempted to blend medieval music with 1960s folk rock to create the new songs"

Two responses...

1. why that blend? What does 1960s folk rock have to do with the setting of 'Tangled'?

2. It's not working...

 

Originally Posted By leemac

<<1. why that blend? What does 1960s folk rock have to do with the setting of 'Tangled'?>>

You have to understand how Menken works to understand why.

A few years back I was sitting in his studio in upstate New York working on a project. It was before Newman was selected for The Frog Princess as he claimed that he had been given the nod to do the music. Alan was crazy busy at the time with several musicals (Sister Act and Leap of Faith) and several park projects (TDS' Sindbad ride and the failed Snow Queen project). He ached to get back into movies though after the debacle over Slater's first foray into animated movies - Home on the Range.

He played me some of the Sister Act musical and I expressed my surprise that it was '70s disco and had no gospel vibe like the movie. He said "I did gospel with Hercules and don't like to repeat myself."

The problem with Alan is that his shtick is pastiche - he is about mimicking styles. So if he doesn't like to use the same style twice then he is running out of musical motifs to utilize. The headline ballad in Snow Queen was to be this soaring number called Love Can't Be Denied. It was fine - not his best but a very passable number. When the project was canceled by OLC I remember talking to a colleague about it and he said "Did you not think it was a rip-off of The Rose?" - and boy-oh-boy was he right.

Ultimately I think there is just too much Menken out there. I also don't think he has found the right lyricist in Slater at all. Folks like David Zippel and Stephen Schwartz are far superior IMHO. I've always been amazed that WDAS has never tried to nurture musical talent - it is such a tough act to write for animated features and you would have thought that they would try to develop talent that can handle it.

 

Originally Posted By skinnerbox

<<He played me some of the Sister Act musical and I expressed my surprise that it was '70s disco and had no gospel vibe like the movie. He said "I did gospel with Hercules and don't like to repeat myself.">>

Is the man mental? The Gospel music was the best stuff in both movies. Choir directors across the country begged Disney for sheet music and took their groups to the films by the busload. And yet Menken chose to walk away from this style because of similar music he created for a different project? Geez!

That just smacks of diva attitude. No thank you.