Originally Posted By dshyates I know several young couples that don't have kids that enjoy going to the GWL. Don't tell anyone but some of them aren't even married.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I know several young couples that don't have kids that enjoy going to the GWL. Don't tell anyone but some of them aren't even married. >>> You're right - there's a certain segment of the adult population that acts a lot like kids in this sort of situation. In fact, I'd say that that's exactly the population of adults that would go to DL without children.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "Are you saying that families with kids don't go to DL when school is in session?" But DL is more of a destination. I guess if there's a GWL on the way to Grandma's, then maybe a family might leave school a day earlier than they would have, but I can't see parents pulling their kids out of school just for a trip to GWL without anything else attached to the trip. It's kind of like the teacups in DL: if you happen to go by it, it's a fun diversion for a little bit, but I wouldn't plan a day around going on it.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA <Don't tell anyone but some of them aren't even married.> blasphemous! They must be socialists!
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt GW's Imax theater has closed (the only one in Orange County) and it appears that the remaining theaters are in jeopardy: <a href="http://www.ocregister.com/news/theater-258940-sanborn-gardenwalk.html" target="_blank">http://www.ocregister.com/news...alk.html</a>
Originally Posted By cheesybaby Last month we had some out of town visitors and stayed at a hotel on Harbor. While entering off Harbor I entered one street too early and found myself on the wrong side of a fence from their hotel. I look for a way to get around the fence (there wasn't one) and ended up driving back behind the hotels, against the 5, stopping at lights I had never seen before in 13 years of living in L.A. and being an APer. After getting turned around up and down and all confused, I was spit out onto a street with absolutely no idea where I was and how to get out of there. I looked up and yep, sure enough, there was AGW. First time I had ever seen it. True story.
Originally Posted By TP2000 Hans, that was a great story. Citibank kicked out the theater operator, so they started ripping out the theater seats that they owned. Citi freaked out because you can't run a theater without the seats, and so they recanted and asked them to stay for a few more weeks until Citi can line up another theater operator. Classic! GardenWalk is an epic failure, aside from weekends when short waits develop for PF Changs and Cheesecake Factory. Whatever happened to the hotels Disney said they would help build there?
Originally Posted By believe ^^^^^ it's a conspiracy. Disney hinted that they were going to build a hotel or two, giving the GW builders more incentive to build (Disney knew they wouldn't build). Then Disney pulled out "due to the economy". Disney had planned for GW to be a bust so that they can get a firesale price on the place.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >> Whatever happened to the hotels Disney said they would help build there? << Disney probably realized they wouldn't be able to fill them at the price points Disney would like.
Originally Posted By leemac <<^^^^^ it's a conspiracy. Disney hinted that they were going to build a hotel or two, giving the GW builders more incentive to build (Disney knew they wouldn't build). Then Disney pulled out "due to the economy". Disney had planned for GW to be a bust so that they can get a firesale price on the place.>> Let me be very clear about this. The Walt Disney Company never planned to build any hotels at GardenWalk - never. It entered into negotiations with Prospera Hotels who own the rights to develop the three parcels of land at the site to possibly manage the properties - i.e. the properties would be managed on a daily basis by DLR and they would be marketed by Walt Disney Travel Co. It is a complex situation as O'Connell Hotels & Hospitality who run many hotels in Anaheim including the Doubletree Guest Suites at the Anaheim Resort and four Best Westerns on Harbor and Katella had initially been contracted for management servies (the Doubletree is a Prospera property managed by O'Connell). However there were concerns that it would be difficult (and costly) to fill 866 units (many family suites) without DLR's participation. The development may still happen - but that is entirely down to Prospera and nothing to do with DLR or TWDC.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Citibank kicked out the theater operator, so they started ripping out the theater seats that they owned. >> I was surprised to read this and wonder if the journalist got it right. Most banks demand fixed charges over specific assets (like leases) and then floating charges over the rest of the owned property which usually includes fixtures and fittings like the seats. Then when a company defaults (usually bankruptcy is a trigger) then the charge crystallized over all assets and it becomes fixed. That would include the seats. Although considering what a basket case Citi is these days it wouldn't surprise me if they failed to get a floating charge.
Originally Posted By leemac <<GardenWalk is an epic failure>> OC is a horrible market to compete in. I just don't see how they got their business plan to hold water. There is no market amongst locals for high-end mall (look at the spectacular failure of the first The Block at Orange concept that is now fast becoming an outlet center now it is owned by SIMON) and it is off the tourist route for DLR traffic. There is an exceptional mall down the road (South Coast Plaza at Costa Mesa is a phenomenal beast with excellent occupancy rates even in the annex now - the Segerstrom family should be proud of their accomplishments) and another about to be redeveloped (Westfield's Main Place Mall) - although the latter has been rumored for years.
Originally Posted By leemac BTW if anyone is interested in real estate retail debacles I suggest they google my favorite story - Xanadu Meadowlands in East Rutherford, NJ. A mall that should have opened in '07 and now will be lucky to see the light of day in '11 or '12. It is the largest mall complex in the US (4.5m sq ft - the Mall of America is 4.2m) and a great case study of how real estate values were overinflated. My favorite contractual clause ever was that the land owners the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority originally stipulated that the mall couldn't be open on NY Giants Game Days. I kid you not. We were shown the parking garages (complete) in '07. Yup - three years ago.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "I just don't see how they got their business plan to hold water." Same here. The whole project just never made any sense to me, particularly the tenant line up.
Originally Posted By dshyates Lee has already expressed a no confidence vote not only in the GG GWL, but the entire chain of GWL Resorts.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Lee - what do you think of GWL's prospects in GG?>> Dim - although it is only a licensing agreement so there is limited risk to GWL. I just don't see how they are going to be able to get people to stay in Garden Grove that are visiting Anaheim. Anaheim depends on two key markets - families visiting DLR and convention traffic. I just can't see how GWL can tap into either market considering the distance to DLR and the already highly competitive hotel market. As dshyates alludes I've a dim view of GWL, period. Hugely indebted they are pursing a host of different strategies - many of which are outside their core market. They can't afford to develop their own brand any more so are licensing wherever possible. They are also trying other products like the Scooops Kid Spa (their first free-standing one was just announced at the Mall of America) and MagiQuest (the company behind that product is in terrible shape too and GWL converted an outstanding receivable into shares). It just seems like a scatter-gun approach with poor execution. I've a dim view of water park hotels too - I just don't see them being able to expand outside key tourist markets. I just don't see the allure - if it is part of a larger experience then great but the arcade isn't enough. I'm not a fan of their "lite" theming either - all too cheesy. I've been an advocate of a Disney branded water park in Anaheim for a long time and I'm certain that it will happen at some point.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "I just don't see how they are going to be able to get people to stay in Garden Grove that are visiting Anaheim." How many times have I said this already?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<GW's Imax theater has closed (the only one in Orange County) >> Actually, the article specified it was the only IMAX in North Orange County. The IMAX at Irvine Spectrum is still operational.
