Originally Posted By idleHands "So, if you're gay, I believe you've chosen wrong and that you've not chosen what will ultimately lead to happiness. And I'll fight right alongside you for your right to be that way." And if you believe in a supreme being typically referred to as "God," I believe you've chosen wrong and that you've not chosen what will ultimately lead to mental health. And I'll fight right alongside you for your right to be that way. And FWIW... I'm a bisexual woman living with a bisexual man for the past 12 years. We're both happy. I used to be married to a straight man for almost 8 years. We were both miserable. And most of my neighbors here in SF are as queer as three dollar bills, and they're all growing old and living large and total happy campers. What is it about religious folk who simply cannot accept that being gay is NOT a choice, and that queers can actually have happy lives, just like anybody else?
Originally Posted By idleHands "Nope just repulsed by the notion of a sexual freak show." Britney Spears is a sexual freak show, IMHO. As for NAMBLA... you obviously know your way around the net. Try Google.
Originally Posted By kennect Patrick, I know about NAMBLA simply because of the idea I am opposed to it....I am also opposed to animal abuse, etc......OH and I hate fur industry! I feel that children and animals have no voice and therefore need to be protected....Your attitude and knowledge about all of this is just really off base...A healthy debate is always great but silly taglines such as "why don’t you spell it out for the rest of the strait crowd girl’s?" isn't needed....No one in this thread has made any nasty remarks about you...If so I missed them....
Originally Posted By idleHands I'm very disappointed with myself, for getting sucked back into another World Events thread, even though it's disguised and seeking refuge in the DL board. Done.
Originally Posted By Dr G kennect: Thanks for your thoughtful questions. I readily admit I can in no way judge what is a choice for someone else and what isn't (I'm just not that powerful). I guess I can just say that what I worte above is only based on my own experience, overlayed onto someone else's experience (and that combination really isn't fair to anyone--but it's often the only way our human brain can try to relate to things that are foreign to it). That experience is that there are things to which I was exposed at a young age that have made me wonder what is a choice in my life and what is the result of the cards I was dealt. I don't know the answers to that myself. However, I truly believe, for me and my life, that the power is within me to choose whatever I want, regardless of the situation. So, the question becomes for me, what do I really want? And then can I make that happen. That's what I'm struggling with--how to improve myself to be what I want, despite what's going on within me. I deal with competing wants it seems, on a daily basis. What is my "greater want"? Even when I think I know the answer, I don't always choose it. Now, what I wrote above is only applicable to me. I am not saying that such is the case for everyone. I am not trying to judge all gays as having made a choice. All I know is that we are all free to choose in this great land of America. I am not gay and therefore I have no experience to say for certain if it's a choice or not. I can only take my experience and extrapolate (sp?). That's not to say I'm right, but it's what I believe. Again, thanks for the thoughtful questions. It is appreciated. And yeah, I don't know what happened to me, but I'm a Disneyland nut too. It's a great place, isn't it? Have a great evening.
Originally Posted By Dr G From idleHands: "And if you believe in a supreme being typically referred to as "God," I believe you've chosen wrong and that you've not chosen what will ultimately lead to mental health. And I'll fight right alongside you for your right to be that way." idleHands: It sounds like we've found our common ground--the right to believe what we want and to allow all others the same right--let them be how or what they may. I'm glad you're happy. I really am. The sad part for me is that you had to then end with an attack on religion. Non-religious folk are often just as mean to religious folk as religious folk are often mean to non-religious folk. Neither one is right. Truthfully, sometimes I wonder if we'll get to the point where the "gays" and the "religious right" will both be abused and degraded minorities. Then we will, unfortunately, have found another common ground. Would that we could both be accepted for who and what we are.
Originally Posted By patrickegan “Britney Spears is a sexual freak show, IMHO.†You got half of that right just look to her ex-husband “ after we realized what we done did!†and the same goes for Madonna grasping at straws for a career that’s long since dead! NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) I don’t have to look it up the first time I heard about this groups was year’s ago seems they were conducting some lobbying efforts so I guess they think they need rights too!
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder Wow, did this get out of hand. And none of us usual suspects from WE had anything to do with it. If this was in WE half of it would be admined and the other half closed to new posts by now.
Originally Posted By kennect Patrick, Their web page is a hoot to read...They deserve no right in my book...Every child on this planet deserves to have a decent childhood...Sadly there are so many that don't get that chance and it has nothing to do with what is being mentioned here....The abuse and neglect of so many children is staggering.....Sadly, we don't live in a perfect world....
Originally Posted By LaurieMC Wow, from a question about what goes on at Gay Days, to a discussion of NAMBLA... I sure hope not too many people will skip from the first page directly to the last one.
Originally Posted By LaurieMC Or, there may be some *really* unsavory characters going to Gay Days 2007... *shudders*
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<Non-religious folk are often just as mean to religious folk as religious folk are often mean to non-religious folk. Neither one is right.>> Actually, there is a "right" and a "not right" on this issue. The religious side frequently uses "it's a choice" as the basis for their attacks on homosexuals. Well, that's factually incorrect. It is not "right." Scientists have not agreed on what makes a person gay. Is it genetics, or is it the life experience they've had? Is it a combination of both? Unclear. It looks like it's largely something one is born with, like being left-handed, but that's not definite at this point. What everyone who's ever studied the issue seriously agrees on though, is that -- whatever causes it -- it's not a choice. It's just the way the person IS. The ONLY groups that have claimed to have any success at changing a homosexual's orientation are Christian re-programming groups. And those claims don't stand up. (As was evidenced when the outspoken leader of the most prominent group was found cruising in a gay bar.) You can say that homosexuality is morally wrong. That's an opinion, and that's okay. But don't say that it's a choice. That's a statement, and it's incorrect.
Originally Posted By patrickegan I have never checked out the site or would I have an inclination but my point was just because you don’t agree with them are you ignorant or intolerant? Most of what they espouse is inter-generational love not sex with children. So your ignorance could be misconstrued as intolerance because they feel the age of consent should be lower and you are just being closed minded if you can’t see it from that perspective. Why most of their (NAMBLA) arguments are the same as the rest of the gay/bi/transgender crowd. Born that way not a choice, been this way throughout history, prevalent in other cultures, blah blah, blah! “What everyone who's ever studied the issue seriously agrees on though, is that -- whatever causes it -- it's not a choice. It's just the way the person IS.â€
Originally Posted By Dr G Inspector: We'll just have to agree to disagree, because really we have very different fundamental, basic beliefs (yes, I'm referring to religious issues) that will make it impossible to agree on the other issues regarding right and wrong. If I believe in God, that is a filter that alters how I view things. If someone does not believe in God, that is also a filter that alters how they view things. What is corret? It depends, I guess, on which filter is right. Maybe both are, in their own way. Maybe neither is. Maybe it's a mix. But, we all have basic, fundamental filters that alter how we view everything else. That's why religion, politics, and other topics become so volatile. If there's a God, then I can hold an opinion that choice is a factor, or one must conclude that God made them that way (and if that's their belief, they have the right to believe that). If there isn't a God, then choice is not a factor. Science or God?--the age old debate. Fiction or Fact? Opinion or Truth. Truthfully, those questions plagued my father until his death. Not to sound too philosophical, but how can we really know what is true. Some turn to Science, which I grant is much easier for the human mind to deal with. Some turn to God, which enters the arena of unprovable faith-based decisions. I can't prove it, and I can't explain it. But I know I feel it. Thanks for a thoughtful discussion. I really do find it fascinating to share thoughts and hear from others. I should probably visit World Events, but I know I'd lose so much time there
Originally Posted By scottie Dr G, I appreciate your post. Despite all of the negative discussions and personal attacks that occur on the subject, your view is probably more of what the general population in our society feels toward the matter. I know that is what I mostly believed. My loving parents taught me the same values. And I still hold them. I definitely believe in right and wrong. When I have kids I will teach them those same values that you believe in. For every act their is a consequence. Good and bad. Your kids are very lucky to have such a loving and accepting family. Sounds very similar to what I grew up with and I wouldn't change a thing. You have built a solid foundation and as they become adults they will have a good head on their shoulders to deal with so much that is thrown at them. I believe because of the love and personal values you seem to have that if one of your kids turned out to be gay you would take a different stance on the morality issue. You would probably have such loving relationships with your children that they might even confide to you that it is not a choice and that they feel terrible for feeling like they are not what you have taught them what God has naturally willed for them. You would change your beliefs on the personal choice of being gay. Maybe not right away. But you would realize that you are not compromising morality, just changing a view on a subject you didn't know enough about. Then you would tell people on these boards that a parent who believes that their gay son, daughter, or grandchild is against the will of god, would be the one causing the feelings of unhapiness and emptiness in the relationship, not the homosexual. Peoples views on this matter are slowly changing. I believe it will be generational. No need to be afraid, I understand, I was afraid too. Now I am hopeful.
Originally Posted By crapshoot All I'm saying is that the only reason I won't wear a red shirt just everywhere is so that I am not asked where the women's restroom facility is in Target. Other wise, I have several red shirts, my wife has several red shirts and I am guilty of wearing them to Disneyland, Knott's and even to Laguna Beach. It's my choice.
Originally Posted By Dr G I have really enjoyed visiting with y'all and hearing your thoughts. It's awesome when people can try to understand each other, even if they don't agree. I really believe we all have much more in common than we do differences. Have a great day!
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Dr. G, I appreciate the respectful tone of your posts. I-57 is quite right, though, that you're starting from a faulty premise: that being gay is a choice. And as Logic 101 tells us, if you start with a faulty premise, much that follows from it will be faulty as well. Many of us could tell you being gay is not a choice, just "from the horse's mouth" as it were. And all serious studies have concluded the same thing, even if the reason some people are gay is no more clear than the reason some people are left-handed. I'd like to point out too, that your earlier statement that it must be "unnatural" is faulty too, considering that it occurs in dozens and dozens of animal species, including all the primates. I'd also like to say that I'm a Christian as well, and there are millions of us (and entire denominations) that understand there's no contradiction between being Christian and gay. I think scottie has had the best posts on this topic, and I hope you'll continue to look deeper - you seem like a good guy, and I think you may well find yourself having a moment of revelation some day such as scottie describes in #134.
