Originally Posted By Ursula I would like the thak Kennect for saying what I was trying to say about the shirts: "But I also loved the comments about the vulgar tshirts....I agree there is no need for them but guess what...I have this older straight brother that is the biggest jerk going... You can't imagine some of the shirts he owns and he wears them in public just to get people going....I am horribly embrassed to even be seen with him...He thinks it is funny..." Well, yes. I've seen shirts at DL with the F word on it and although I use that word often personally, I don't think it should be on a shirt in a family-based amusement park. I do think that DL used to make people wear offensively marked clothing inside out but for whatever reason, DL has stopped this, regardless of the sexual orientation of the wearer.
Originally Posted By Ursula and I also know my sister was very uncomfortable in having to explain a teabag to my 15 year old neice in public with the whole family overhearing the question. There is a time and a place for everything! But really, mostly everyone was great and I got a lot of compliments on my hair the whole weekend.
Originally Posted By Dr G Dabob2: Thanks for your comments. Again, keep in mind that my comments are coming from my perspective, as do your comments from your perspective. Therefore, from my perspective, I do not believe I am starting from a faulty premise regarding choice (but I respect your right to say that I am). By way of furthering respectful diagolgue and understanding differences of opinion, here's some further insight into my premise. I only speak for myself, from my experience and my perspective. I readily admit that I am not gay, and therefore I do not understand the issue, so I don't pretend to be an expert--but, as you've seen, I'm happy to share my opinion . The perspective of the gays is much more applicable to understanding the gay perspective (did I just repeat myself? ), which is why I've enjoyed reading those comments, including yours. First off, with all due respect, I've never understood the logic behind the statement of other methods of reproduction in the plant or animal worlds being applicable to humans. We are human beings, not any of dozens and dozens of animal species. I know of no way for humans to reproduce except with sperm and egg. Mankind is, by definition, a primate, yet mankind reproduces with male and female, so the comment about reproduction occurring in all primates should at least exclude humans. I don't know enough about other primates such as apes, monkeys, lemurs, etc. to know if they can reproduce homosexually, but off the top of my head I did not think they did. This idea of the animal world leads me to the next perspective, which may help explain why I've written the things I have. I believe that the following perspective is the core issue in any choice discussion (homosexuality or other topics), at least as I perceive it. I believe that mankind is the highest level of the evolutionary/creation/existence/whatever-we-call-it scale that there is. As a general rule, we have the ability to reason, to think, to decide, etc--in other words, we have the ability to "act", and not always be "acted upon", at least in this great country of America. Based on this premise, I believe that we all have the ability to choose what we do, rather than most of the animal world that is driven by nature/instinct/etc. With choice also comes accountability, and the ability to change. Just because I've always done something one way does not mean that I have to continue, should I choose to do something else, or should I be further enlightened. So, here's my point. As a general rule, logically it does not make sense to me when a human being states that they do not have a choice regarding their actions. We are not slaves, we are not being forced, and we are not some animal programmed to respond to instinct. We are choosing. I've done things contrary to my belief system, yet I acknowledge that they were my choices, that I was not forced, and I take responsibility for them. Things I've done that are not contrary to my belief system, I don't worry about. It makes much more logical sense to me for someone to say they have chosen a homosexual lifestyle than to say they had no choice in the matter. If that homosexual lifestyle is against their belief system, then they will feel guilt of some sort. If it is not against their belief system, they shouldn't worry about it, or about what others think, and they shouldn't apologize or make excuses about it. If we believe our actions are correct, then we don't need to make excuses, only explain, if someone is interested. Excuses weaken our position. I respect the approach idleHands expressed so well, whereby she said this is what she is, and she's happy-no excuses. Now, I understand that there are circumstances where something will occur in someone's life, that makes choosing very difficult. Sometimes it's our own doing, and sometimes it's the result of choices made by others. Sometimes previous choices we've made (or choices of others which have affected us) move us along a path where, unless we backtrack, some choices are no longer available to us. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if homosexuality is one of those cases. Regardless, choice or born-that-way, there is no excuse for anyone to mistreat, label, or belittle another human being for their actions or their beliefs. We can't confuse actions/beliefs with the person behind them. I welcome any constructive insight or thoughts on what I've written. I will say that I'm trying to keep an open mind and understand, and it may very well be that there isn't a choice involved. It may be that I won't understand that until I die and have things explained to me. I will say this, I used to think that my kids would never have runny noses in public, or draw on my walls. But, they've done that and more. So, to scottie's earlier comments, it's possible I could someday have that experience--I just don't foresee that at this point. Thanks for listening to me and for explaining your points of view. Have a great day!
Originally Posted By Dr G By the way, sorry about all the spelling errors in my posts Fer the most parte, eye kan spel pruddy goode, but sumtymes mak misstakkes
Originally Posted By Tiggirl Dr G, please forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something here. <<It makes much more logical sense to me for someone to say they have chosen a homosexual lifestyle than to say they had no choice in the matter.>> It seems to me that choosing a "lifestyle" is a lot different than choosing to be gay. Is suppose I choose my lifestlye which includes visiting with friends, doing to Disneyland, watching movies, living with a roommate... that is my lifestyle. but I didn't choose to be straight or chose to be attracted to the opposite sex, I just am. I'm just trying to clarify. Are you saying your belief is that some people choose to be attracted to the same sex or rather they choose to act on those feelings thus being the "gay lifestyle" I am assuming you are refering to? Thanks!
Originally Posted By Ursula I was always taught that it isn't a choice, as far as sexual orientations go. It's like saying that when I was born, I had a choice to have blonde hair. Or, in my case, that I had a choice to not have obsese genes.
Originally Posted By hammertime Dr G There's been some debate on you saying it's a choice that people decide to be gay. I think the point that they are missing is that at least you seem to be willing to be friends with a gay person. My husbands family are very religious and I can't imagine them ever being friends with a gay person and that saddens me. For the most part my in-laws close themselves off to anyone that isn't a christian or that doesn't look or act like them. Well they do still love my hubby and I who are non-christian but I think that's as far as they go. Just for the record I don't think being gay is a choice I think people are born that way.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Dr. G, Thanks for your intelligent and well-stated questions. Let me see if I can answer a couple of them. First of all, on the other animals - it's true that they, like humans, do not reproduce homosexually, but of course there's much more to being alive, let alone being human, than reproducing. I was not referring to reproduction before, rather to the fact that homosexual behavior has been observed in dozens of species. In some species, same-sex long-term mating has been observed (same-sex swan couples mating for life and nesting together season after season, for example). And this is true despite the fact that it does not lead to offspring - which if anything leads me even more to believe it must just be what a certain percentage of that species' population has it in their instinct to do. They certainly didn't choose it, as it's not in their nature to have that kind of choice, as you say yourself. Same goes for humans, I think. Now, of course, we can choose whether to act on that natural impulse or not, but the same goes for straight people. To actually have sex has always been your choice - to be attracted to the opposite sex in the first place was not. See the difference? Now, some people take that and say "okay... therefore people naturally inclined to homosexuality should just not have sex." Well, I don't believe that's so, and neither does my church. I know that my love for my spouse (going on 11 years together) has brought me closer to God, and so I see nothing wrong with the choice to live as a loving sexual human being, having been dealt the hand that I will be attracted to my own sex.
Originally Posted By PastKnight <<Seems to me that tolerence should mean that both sides respect the others point of view <<I disagree with the politicly correct viewpoint that being gay is normal FanOfGofy thinking something abnormal is not tolerant. I will however admit, as a bi republican, gays do not always practice tolerance themselces
Originally Posted By PastKnight cwade as a christian you disgust me, christians are to be "Christ like" by deffinition. Jesus taught to love EVERTYONE. Whoes the hypocrit?
Originally Posted By knoxvelour Gay, straight, bi...I don't really care. As long as the person in question isn't a jerk. Are people born jerks or is that a lifestyle choice?
Originally Posted By PastKnight Dr G Do you also teach your children that you are the solu arbitor of what is right and wrong? The first time I have been offended in this thread is your insuation that gays don't have a sense of right and wrong! seems you judgesd a person there didn't you?
Originally Posted By kennect Knox, In the case of my brother he was born a jerk....I am sure though that many others have learned the trait throughout the years....I always thought though that my brother would mellow with age...Not...He just gets worse the older he gets....
Originally Posted By M177 "On any given day there could be at least 25% gay or bi people (oh-oh!) at the Park, not just on Gay Days." .....and thats just the cm's.
Originally Posted By warpdrvr >>cwade as a christian you disgust me, christians are to be "Christ like" by deffinition. Jesus taught to love EVERTYONE. Whoes the hypocrit?<< I can't answer for cwade, but as a Christian myself, I do love ALL people, gay or straight, but I don't have to love the actions people take in life. And by this, I don't mean I am judging them, I'll leave that to Someone Else. I just don't agree with them.
Originally Posted By kmsandrbs Hmm. A lot since I last was able to read ... As far as those defending the initial post ... Think about why it was posted. As I read it, there was not a question about whether there would be problems during Gay Days. The poster, apparently, had already decided not to go. But, instead of simply asking when Gay Days were, they specifically made a statement about (something along the lines of) remembering un-family activity. This totally seems like trolling. Dr. G. ... I appreciate that 1) you are willing to state what you believe and 2) that you are willing to engage in a reasonable discussion. Two things, though, that I would question. First, you indicate in a couple of posts that here, in America, we are free to do as we choose. I would encourage you to consider that this is not really the case (and I am not referring to 'choosing' homosexuality, but I took your statement to include much more than that choice). Second, well, I'm going to check back on your responses to some of the other questions on the choice issue, because I'm not quite clear where you are coming from. It seems like you are saying something along the lines of "God says it's evil. God would not make someone in such a way as to make them so inclined to do evil, so people cannot be made that way, they have to choose." And/or that it is not natural. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on your take.
Originally Posted By Dr G <<Do you also teach your children that you are the solu arbitor of what is right and wrong?>> No. I teach them that God is, and that they have to decide for themselves what actions they are going to take, and then they have to accept the consequences of those actions. As a parent, I have the responsibility to teach my young children my understanding of right and wrong--if I don't, someone else will. As children get older, they learn to develop their own sense of right and wrong. I'm sure we'll all agree that all children do not believe the same as their parents when the children grow up. The children become adults and develop their own sense of identity. <<The first time I have been offended in this thread is your insuation that gays don't have a sense of right and wrong! seems you judgesd a person there didn't you?>> First off, generally when someone is offended by something that someone else said, the person offended is not comfortable in their own skin. If you feel you are right in your belief, please don't let others, including me, offend you with what we say. Second, I admit that I am saying that gays do not have the same sense of right and wrong that I do. I believe I have made that point clear before. We all have our own sense of right and wrong. Who is right and who is wrong? That's not for me to decide for anyone but myself. Which leads to my third and final response to your question. I did not judge a person. I judged the actions according to my belief system. Anytime you have a belief in right and wrong, you then are required to make a judgment on whether a particular action is right or wrong. Perhaps a brief example will help you understand my point of view, and I'll go ahead and use smoking (please, smokers, don't jump on me for this). If I judge actions, I believe smoking is a wrong action for me and I decide not to smoke. If I judge people, I say the smoker is going to hades. My point, that I've tried to make, is we judge actions and decide what we, personally, will or will not do, but we never condemn an individual to hades. I believe that is the role of God, not man. We love people.
Originally Posted By Dr G <<First, you indicate in a couple of posts that here, in America, we are free to do as we choose. I would encourage you to consider that this is not really the case (and I am not referring to 'choosing' homosexuality, but I took your statement to include much more than that choice).>> You are correct that I was extending my comments to more than just homosexuality, but let me explain what I intended to mean. I believe we have as many freedoms in America as any people who have ever lived on earth. We choose our own political leaders. We have freedom of speech, of the press, of religion. These are great blessings that God has given every person, but that evil people in ruling positions have taken away from those they rule. And yes, many of our freedoms have been taken away in this Country. Now, just because we have the freedom to act in a certain way, it doesn't mean that we should, or that we can without consequences. Actions have consequences. Even if I felt justified in killing people--which I don't, for those wondering--the consequence of that is prison or death in this life and, I believe, major trouble in the life to come. I hope that helps. I don't believe people should exercise complete freedom to do wrong things, because they hurt others and themselves in the process. I'm speaking generally here, and not in relation to the topic at hand.
Originally Posted By Dr G <<It seems like you are saying something along the lines of "God says it's evil. God would not make someone in such a way as to make them so inclined to do evil, so people cannot be made that way, they have to choose." And/or that it is not natural. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on your take.>> Yes, that's a pretty good summary of what I'm saying. Again, please remember that this is from my perspective, and not as a person who understands what it is like to be gay. That being said, I have tendencies to do that which is contrary to my perception of God's will. So, that's my understanding based on my perception. But, I hear a lot of gays saying that their natural inclination is what it is. So, if God exists, and what they are saying is true, then God has created something contrary to his will. That's the issue I'm trying to resolve in my own mind. If that's the case, then God will take it into account when He renders judgment, it's not my job to render the judgment. I'm trying to better understand the concept of mankind being in a "natural man" state and trying to become a "spiritual man"(yes, I'm using "man" in the gender-neutral sense of the word), by overcoming the desires of the flesh, to use an old-fashioned phrase. And those desires of the flesh don't just apply to homosexuals. Yes, there are gaps in my understanding and logic, and I'm just trying to reconcile what I know with what I see around me. Tiggirl, I hope that answers your question too. This is probably confusing, because it is not fully resolved in my own mind.
